TLIAW: Camelot Lost
- Thread starter Enigma-Conundrum
- Start date
Was he that hostile to the Goldwater/Reagan wing OTL, or is there some Authorial voice creeping through there?
It's a pretty unique take to have the US go "eh" and shrug their shoulders at the space race. Wonder how that came about; maybe if the US gets a satellite up first the 'sputnik moment' never happens, but even with better relations I have a hard time seeing the US just not care much about space.
Anywhoo, really enjoyed this timeline so far and looking forward to where it goes, especially with the different Cold War!
That's a direct quote adapted to the TTL situation, we don't have any interest in passing those kinds of judgements off on the people we bring into this.
Now, who said the US doesn't care about space here? They were just kind of caught lacking by a succession of administrations who didn't give NASA the TLC Kennedy-Johnson did, and the end result was seen above. We'll see how that plays out soon.
That was literally their Gilded Age platform.
Oh, and they insisted that their opposition to immigration... was tied philosophically to their opposition to slavery.
In conclusion, the Gilded Age was terrible.
Ayyup.
1920s Oregon. "We were founded as a free soil state, and that is why we are so very fond of that sterling organization, the Klu-Klux Klan."
And it all dates back to an incredibly popular blockbuster movie. George Lucas wishes he could've gotten millions of people to call themselves Jedi Knights and hold massive parades across the United States as a result of Star Wars.
Almost every quote regarding Goldwater and Reagan was adapted from real quotes of his -- the only line I outright fabricated was the smarmy remark about Reagan's films fighting valiantly in the war. He called Goldwater's nomination a death wish, he refused to endorse Nixon or Reagan for governor, backed Rocky over Barry, got into fights with the Birchers that led to them spreading rumors about his sexuality, all of those are more-or-less real parts of Tommy Kuchel's life
Damn, hats off to him for being so far ahead of the times. I'm just surprised that there were Republicans that hostile to Reagan&Goldwater back in the day. Kuchel must have been very saddened by the time he died in the 90's OTL.
Interesting, the impression I got in the timeline was that the US was kinda just collectively shrugging it off until the Soviet moon landing; even without Kennedy and Johnson in the White House I'd have thought there would be enough people in Congress supporting space efforts to ensure that the US didn't fall behind too badly.
Let me put it this way -- there was an uptick in articles about him around 2016-2017, lmao
Honestly part of it is on our end for forgetting until Turn 3, but I did make an offhanded remark about how NASA seemed one step behind at every point, so take that as less top-down interest being manifested as playing the hits, as opposed to genuinely trying to beat the Soviets.
A bunch of interesting stuff here that either doesn't get explored in Alternate History or doesn't get a thorough look - Kuchel himself shows up in lists now and again but this is the first time I've seen him be looked at in any sort of organized way. Same with a Soviet moon landing - comes up from time to time, but people don't often look at the effects of it. And I don't think I've ever seen a sort of in-between approach to China (or a Lin coup that doesn't go all the way) - but it's certainly a plausible path...
Between his weird inconsistent attitudes towards race and his decision to go into the newspaper business after the Presidency, Kuchel feels like a very 19th-century figure. Maybe it's just a generally stodgier political environment.
I feel like Daniel Patrick Moynihan's combination of intellectualism, internationalism, and racism with just enough of a fig leaf over it to make it 'respectable' will serve him well in this timeline's Democratic Party.
Overall, I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes!
Between his weird inconsistent attitudes towards race and his decision to go into the newspaper business after the Presidency, Kuchel feels like a very 19th-century figure. Maybe it's just a generally stodgier political environment.
I feel like Daniel Patrick Moynihan's combination of intellectualism, internationalism, and racism with just enough of a fig leaf over it to make it 'respectable' will serve him well in this timeline's Democratic Party.
Overall, I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes!
God let me tell you Tommy Kuchel is one evasive fucker, so I get it. The ending paragraph of that one was mostly real -- the only sources I could find were him being interviewed for an Oral History Project on Earl Warren; and the ittl-WHCOS Pop Small talking about his time with him in office. I think there was maybe one or two excerpts about Kuchel's time in the Senate, a couple essays talked about quotes from him (that's where I got the Bracero quote from).
Oh, speaking of Pop Small, here's what he looked like by the way.
I spent a week or so going back-and-forth on if I wanted the PRC to be mostly the same or if I wanted Lin Biao to coup him. I initially wanted to back down from the latter option because by most accounts it seems like Lin Biao was not involved at all with the conspiracy and I'd be loathed to spread misinformation like that. But, eventually, I figured him inviting Mao back was a fun way to find an interesting middle-ground that's not often discussed.
(I try pulling something similar in the President you'll get acquainted with this Saturday-Sunday, who I finished writing a couple days back.)
Admittedly, the newspaper thing was an invention by yours truly -- IRL he went back into lawyering. The race stuff is particularly a struggle for me to write because it's hard to tell what he stood for, really. He worked closely with Humphrey and so there's a couple joint statements between the two on, like, radio programs and the like. But the fact that there's no memoirs and no biographies means that how much he believed in and when really made that a pain. I ended up splitting the difference between JFK's Civil Rights Act proposal and Ev Dirksen's counter-proposal. So in the end we get something rather toothless but promising something great.
The second you sent this, Enigma read it and messaged me "shit, Moynihan would've been PERFECT for this..." -- a few other wacky Democrats of the Moynihan Persuasion get mentioned as we go, though, but not the big guy himself. Incredible choice, though, to echo the invisible praise of Enigma: you have a great sense for Who To Pick for these kinda things.
Thank you both! Love both of your stuff so it means the world!
Replace Chinese with Japanese and you have described the political career of Earl Warren.
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This reminds me of a story from history class where, in 1897, a Nativist bill successfully passed congress that would have required a literacy test for any immigrants entering into the US (they'd have had to be able to read and write 25 words of the constitution in any language). This bill was vetoed by President Cleveland, who pointed out that while the quality of immigrants could be considered undesirable, quote, "The time is quite within recent memory when the same thing was said of immigrants who, with their descendants, are now numbered among our best citizens."
Unfortunately, 20 years later, a literacy test requirement was passed under a different bill and signed into law by Woodrow Wilson, so you now can write one more reason on the long list of reasons to despise Woodrow Wilson.
Woodrow Wilson:
"I would rather belong to a poor Nation that was free than to a rich Nation that had ceased to be in love with liberty."
Also Wilson:
"Segregation is not a humiliation but a benefit."
This is an excellent TLAW! The choice of presidents is unconventional and creative, and the writing is good.
As a space nerd, I am interested in the implications of a mostly one-horse race for the Moon. In OTL, Khrushchev was unenthusiastic about the moon until Kennedy announced the Apollo program, and even then work on a Soviet moonshot did not start in earnest until the Soviets realized the Americans were serious about landing a man on the moon. I wonder what changed TTL, and why did the Soviets go to the moon with no pressure from the Americans? I also wonder without a rival program, was Korolev and the other designers given a much more relaxed timetable, allowing for a more sustainable (and successful) Soviet moon program architecture?
As a space nerd, I am interested in the implications of a mostly one-horse race for the Moon. In OTL, Khrushchev was unenthusiastic about the moon until Kennedy announced the Apollo program, and even then work on a Soviet moonshot did not start in earnest until the Soviets realized the Americans were serious about landing a man on the moon. I wonder what changed TTL, and why did the Soviets go to the moon with no pressure from the Americans? I also wonder without a rival program, was Korolev and the other designers given a much more relaxed timetable, allowing for a more sustainable (and successful) Soviet moon program architecture?
