There were forests in Ireland, but I don't think they had as many as Britain. Note in OTL Britain did use the forests of North America as a source of wood for shipbuilding.
AHQ: How powerful could an independent Ireland be?
- Thread starter Count of Crisco
- Start date
I think I read somewhere here once that English shipmakers said the wood wasn’t suitable for building ships. Though if that was true, it would be more for dealing with the competition. I suppose if the Irish wasn’t a big fleet here, they would need to use the wood to make the ships in America rather than shipping it across the Atlantic. Otherwise they might as well just buy the wood from the Baltic or Scandinavia.
I think that Norway might be a not terrible analogy, as a remote Christian kingdom on the North Atlantic fringes of the Christian world.
They could just buy the coal from Wales and England after a certain point.
I wonder if Ireland would be able to muscle out the English from North America? Intercepting their shipping early on and establishing colonies before they can get there. Maybe the Irish set up colonies in OTL Canada and New England before English settlers begin arriving and hold onto the area, even if by the skin of their teeth.
Newfoundland-Ireland is the shortest distance across the Atlantic; as soon as Irish discover the grand banks they'll have every reason to hit the area. Maybe Ireland becomes the Portugal to England's Spain?
Could be. You may see an Ireland which settles the northern parts of the continent, parts that England generally doesnt want and no one else is very interested in. I wonder if they would try and nab anything else or be content with this? Could we see an Irish presence in India or Africa?
Its not too few. And if they get colonies early enough that are ignored for long enough their north American settlements could allow rapid growth of the population.
Depends on your context for "too few".
I can see there being Irish colonies, I have a lot of trouble seeing them dominating say, Northeastern North America in general (as opposed to a Nova Hibernia vs. OTL's Nova Scotia).
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That's about the same as the Netherlands which had a large colonial empire. Ireland will never be a giant among nations, but plenty of small European states were quite successful. There would be rapid population growth in the on coming centuries and a decent, if not huge, increase in general welfare. Ireland could be a successful commercial state, meaning wide spread literacy. The issue is that British Union seems very likely at some point, however, one can imagine that a more equal union is possible. The adoption of Protestantism might change things. Ireland was something of an exception for northern Europe in keeping with Catholicism. An Irish Bible could prove effective.
You can ship the wood back in the form of ships because that is your principal use for it. Coal though? Only if the price of wood is sky high. Yes, in the middle ages and onward coal was shipped from Newcastle to London at a profit because the price of wood and charcoal was so high. However, that is over a fraction of the distance of an Atlantic crossing.
There is also the cost of setting up the coloney, especially if it goes to the wall a a la Darrien.
The Netherlands didn't have much of a shot at the scenario of dominating population-wise with settler colonies, and Ireland is less densely settled than the Netherlands so far as people even wanting to leave - especially if Ireland is more prosperous than OTL and there's less reason to want to leave Ireland for that reason. Whatever TTL's Ireland is like. I think either "backwater" or "one of the most commercial (and urban?) parts of Europe" (like the OTL Netherlands) would be surprising - my suspicions are somewhere that's just not either remarkably rich or remarkably downtrodden, more like Scotland than like Portugal or the Netherlands.
Also: The potential butterflies with (assuming a POD around 900-1000) over a half a millennium of butterflies and other changes to what even emerges in regards to religion is going to be potentially pretty dramatic. I'm not sure what Protestantism would be like here, or where Ireland would lean with developments going differently having an impact on what ties to Rome there are to be cut.
Ireland doesn't have much potential for industry. Outside of the ports most cheaply able to import coal from England, Wales, and Scotland (basically Dublin and Belfast), Irish industry would have trouble competing with English industry. That alone would hamper development and lead to emigration, much the same as people emigrated in large numbers from the undeveloped south of Italy.
Now where would TTL's Irishmen go? If they have a New World colony that's doing decently well, they might head there, much like how many Portuguese went to Brazil in the 19th century. We'd still see large Irish communities in parts of England and Scotland TTL, just like Italians in France.
Well firstly, a Gaelic kingdom is NOT going to happen as the Scottish gentry have never spoken Gaelic, at least not since Scotland has been a thing.
But if you go back to the turn of the millennium or so, unite the island, and turn it into a trading power (which is the only way she gets the money and wherewithal to explore anything) she could be a Portugal analogue, at least theoretically.
Question is, does she have anything worth trading to get her started?
But if you go back to the turn of the millennium or so, unite the island, and turn it into a trading power (which is the only way she gets the money and wherewithal to explore anything) she could be a Portugal analogue, at least theoretically.
Question is, does she have anything worth trading to get her started?
I wonder if they'd be keen to go to a colony of England's or (well, and/or) Scotland's (or ex-colony like the OTL US) in this timeline - there would presumably be less hostility to Irish immigration, and possibly more cultural connections in general even if there's no political union.
Some of the best cattle in the region, if we're looking at the early medieval period. Also, Ireland was known in Antiquity and later as a source of gold. And there's always fishing as an important source of trade along with wool.