I am curious to see if Marco has any more changes that’s he’s planning/would like to make to the silent film era. I really enjoy his posts about really old stuff (1880s-1920s, basically pre-sound and colour stuff) as a history and pop culture nerd myself. Like, is anything going to be changed about A Trip to the Moon (1902) or The Great Train Robbery (1903)? Or are they going to stay the same classics as we know them IOTL?
Trying to Please Everyone: Or Converting multiple Pop Culture Utopias into a Timeline.
- Thread starter Marco Incognito
- Start date
Besides his magnum opus Greed not having its longer directors’ cut lost and it going on to win Best Picture of 1924, what is Erich von Stroheim’s film career like ITTL?
His first film The Country Boy is not lost, neither is The Devil's Pass Key and he found better work with D.W.Griffith. He was never replaced on 1923's Merry Go Round. Greed is made for Goldwyn pictures., which he also did the Merry Widow for them. Greed also is a bit more faithful to the book due to the original locations surviving the 1906 San Francisco Earthquake. He was also kept on as director for 1929's Queen Kelly. Stroheim then did Hello, Sister! with George Raft as Mac in 1933. He worked on the film The White Lady in France but it was on hold due to World War II, he completed it after the War.
Cool stuff!
What about what happens to Alice Guy-Blanché, Segundo de Chomón, D. W. Griffith, Fritz Lang, and F. W. Murnau?
Alice Guy-Blanché
Blanche was among group in the 1890's including Gustave Eiffel(You may be familiar with his tower), who founded the world's oldest film company(OTL it was named after Gaumont because of a then recent scandal involving Gustave Eiffel and the Panama Canal). Sure enough their logo is the Eiffel Tower as Eiffel was also President of the Studio. Her first film, The Fairy of the Cabbages, is not lost, and indirectly inspired the Cabbage Patch Kids. She is remembered as the first narrative filmmaker and first female filmmaker. Some films like The Lure are not lost. She continued to work in film after her divorce until her 1968 death. She had a studio in New York, and one in TTL"s Kissimmee Florida, which is essentially a second Hollywood. She directed a 1940's Wonder Woman Film Serial(it is quite possibly set during World War I and is similar to the Patty Jenkins film but with more of the Greek Gods appearing such as Aphrodite and Ares and more of a silent film aesthetic), which complimented the Superman and Batman serials. This isn't too much of a stretch as she did direct a film with a script by Wonder Woman's creator William Marston.
Segundo de Chomón
Lived longer as he was planning to return to full production when he died of a sudden heart attack. Like OTL is mostly known for his special and practical effects.
D. W. Griffith
Aside from Birth of a Nation being about the American Revolution. Intolerance is still made. The Squaw Man is renamed and stars Native American actors. Death of a Nation is not lost, though given its time period. It depicts America falling to a communist revolution in the 1910's after Theodore Roosevelt is assassinated. Everything else is largely OTL.
Fritz Lang
Lang directed the Cabinet of Dr.Caligari ITTL. He still made Metropolis though there is a more definitive long version. M is titled Murderer Among Us, its original title. it is not delayed like OTL(The Nazi Party thought the film was about them and relented when told the plot). He contributed to the French remake of The Cabinet of Dr.Caligari after fleeing the Nazis. which replaced Liliom. Leaving to America, he made Fury(1936), which ITTL contained his original vision. The Film is about a Black Man who is falsely accused of a crime and a mob lynches him. He survives in secret and gets the mob convicted for his own murder. The film lacks a happy ending and as a result of its changed plot does not star Spencer Tracy. He then made several anti-Nazi films including Cloak and Dagger(1946) which kept the cut ending which implied the Nazis were close to discovering nuclear secrets(removed as it was untrue and was seen as ridiculous at this time OTL). The Big Heat(1953) has Marilyn Monroe as Debby Marsh. Lang would return t work in Germany but retired, serving only as occasional consultant as his age caught up with him.
F. W. Murnau
Made Dracula in 1922 with his Film Company Prada surviving as OTL it went under because of lawsuits from the Stoker estate. He still moved to Hollywood and made Sunrise: A Tale of Two Humans. His films 4 Devils and City Girl were not lost ITTL. and two versions of each were made as silent and sound. He would shoot the Film Turia(1931) while in Tahiti. He avoided the OTL accident that caused his death and continued working for some years, including making Anti-Nazi Propaganda films much like Lang and dying after returning to Germany after the war and working there for several years. ITTL the state of Murray's grave, where it was broken into with the body missing and evidence of a satanic ritual of some sort having taken place instead happened to Bela Lugosi's grave.
Great stuff! It’s good to know that Alice’s contributions to cinema won’t be lost here, and I find it interesting that Gustave Effie is involved here. The idea of a director from the 1890s going on to direct a 1940s films is crazy and insane to me in a good way that is.
Also, a question, but I noticed here and in your post about God Blessed America in my ideal/better countries histories thread that Kissimmee, Florida become prominent in the film industry, I like it but I have researched it and wonder why Kissimmee in particular?
Good stuff, that guy was basically the Spanish George Méliès.
Nice stuff, Griffith I imagine has a better reputation and legacy here ITTL.
Besides the changes in the designer and some of the actors, how different or similar is The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari ITTL with Fritz in the director’s chair instead of Wiene?
To be honest, I think M is a better, more iconic, and more simple name, although if the name stays the same here I can imagine plenty of Among Us memes would be made about it.
A major American film with a black lead dealing with his lynch mob in must’ve been a big deal in 1936! Even if America is more progressive ITTL.
That is a good ending for a anti-Nazi film, sure to scare the socks off of people who don’t know any better!
More good stuff to know that Prana Film does not go down under, and that 4 Devils and City Girl are not lost films here.
I do wonder what kind of anti-Nazi propaganda films he would’ve made if he lived to see the rest of the 1930s and then the 1940s, alongside this contemporary and equally great director Lang.
Just going off here by a guess and doing some math, I presume Murnau passes away sometime in the 1970s ITTL perhaps?
Geography works. It’s near all the Theme Parks and has a memorable and bankable name.
Yes but OTL after the Birth of a Nation and Intolerance he just sort of never had that level of fame or infamy again.
In general there is better and more suspenseful cinematography in the film.
Balanced out somewhat by Among Us not being as big with the Covid 19 pandemic.
I imagine Murnau passes before Lang, who passed away in 1976. Lang would attend his funeral.
Yeah that does make sense.
That’s true.
Good stuff.
Indeed that is also true.
I’m thinking sometime in 1972 at the age of either 83 or 84.
To continue on with my questions about film directors ITTL, what are the careers of Orson Welles, Alfred Hitchcock, Edgar Wright, Christopher Nolan, and Sam Raimi like here?
Will Welles be able to make both his adaptation of Heart of Darkness while also being able to create his magnum opus Citizen Kane?
I’m curious if Hitchcock still makes both Number 13 (1922) or The Mountain Eagle (1926) as he said that he didn’t like either of those films despite them being his first two.
Will any of Edgar Wright’s films be changed here? I do love Shaun of the Dead and Hot Fuzz.
I do know that Raimi still gets to direct some Spider-Man films so that’s pretty good for the people if TTL to experience.
Orson Welles alone took longer than expected so here. More later,
Orson Welles
Born Orson George Welles. His early path follow largely the same, though one notable different is he doesn't accidentally stab Joseph Holland with a real knife during a production of Julius Caesar. his includes the War of the Worlds broadcast. Though his play The Green Goddess is not lost. His first film is technically Too Much Johnson, a short comedy he made In 1938. Welles released Heart of Darkness (1941). This was his original idea for Citizen Kane and that film is further delayed as the Government acts Welles to make a propaganda Film and he adapts The Shadow(1942). This is partly because OTL he was sent overseas to South America and procrastinated on working on The Magnificent Ambersons, resulting in the studio editing it without him. The Shadow helps revolutionize Superhero films as a genuine genre early on mixed with the better made Film Serials of the era. Welles then makes The Magnificent Ambersons(1943). Journey into Fear(1944) is released with Joseph Cotton and Michelle Morgan in her American debut. Welles then makes The cancelled OTL It's All True(1945) in South America which consists of story segments. It is then that he makes Citizen Kane(1946) as ITTL his delays in South America never led him to be removed from Hollywood for a time. Hearst still attacks him. He doesn't direct The Stranger due to John Huston being available. Welles goes to direct the Around the World in 80 Days(1947), which is shot around the world. His next film is The Way of Santiago(1948), which replaces OTL's The Lady from Shanghai, which OTL was made because Welles was called and needed to make a movie and picked a random book off his shelf. That film involves a Nazi Conspiracy to attack America set in Mexico, similar to Casablanca. He made The Life of Christ(1949) in place of Macbeth. He plays Harry Line in The Third Man but does not appear In Black Magic ITTL.
Macbeth(1951) is released in place of Othello ITTL. He did write a script for Erich Von Stroheim's Portrait of an Assassin. He released Moby Dick-Rehearsed(1955). Essentially a Film on his own screenplay of Moby Dick. which included Gordon Jackson, Christopher Lee, and Patrick McGoohan. This scene from the OTL 1956 adaptation with Welles in a cameo role is likely a close to what to expect:
Welles releases his version of Don Quixote(1958) with Francisco Reiguera for Universal as he was working for Desilu at the same time. This delays Touch of Evil(1962) as Heston was the one pushing for it and insisted Welles direct. Also butterflying away The Trial. He then does Catch-22(1965). He then does Chimes at Midnight(1968) and then The Deep(1973), followed by The Heroine(1978). He then has three final film made between 1980 and his death, possibly provided he survives his heart attack. The first is Batman around 1980 or so as ITTL the 1978 Superman film was directed by Steven Spielberg, leading them to look for bigger talent for the OTL delayed until 1989 Batman film. Another cancelled OTL Film The Dreamers followed around 1983 or so, with his final film being a French funded adaptation of King Lear, which was planned OTL but ended with his death.
Orson Welles
Born Orson George Welles. His early path follow largely the same, though one notable different is he doesn't accidentally stab Joseph Holland with a real knife during a production of Julius Caesar. his includes the War of the Worlds broadcast. Though his play The Green Goddess is not lost. His first film is technically Too Much Johnson, a short comedy he made In 1938. Welles released Heart of Darkness (1941). This was his original idea for Citizen Kane and that film is further delayed as the Government acts Welles to make a propaganda Film and he adapts The Shadow(1942). This is partly because OTL he was sent overseas to South America and procrastinated on working on The Magnificent Ambersons, resulting in the studio editing it without him. The Shadow helps revolutionize Superhero films as a genuine genre early on mixed with the better made Film Serials of the era. Welles then makes The Magnificent Ambersons(1943). Journey into Fear(1944) is released with Joseph Cotton and Michelle Morgan in her American debut. Welles then makes The cancelled OTL It's All True(1945) in South America which consists of story segments. It is then that he makes Citizen Kane(1946) as ITTL his delays in South America never led him to be removed from Hollywood for a time. Hearst still attacks him. He doesn't direct The Stranger due to John Huston being available. Welles goes to direct the Around the World in 80 Days(1947), which is shot around the world. His next film is The Way of Santiago(1948), which replaces OTL's The Lady from Shanghai, which OTL was made because Welles was called and needed to make a movie and picked a random book off his shelf. That film involves a Nazi Conspiracy to attack America set in Mexico, similar to Casablanca. He made The Life of Christ(1949) in place of Macbeth. He plays Harry Line in The Third Man but does not appear In Black Magic ITTL.
Macbeth(1951) is released in place of Othello ITTL. He did write a script for Erich Von Stroheim's Portrait of an Assassin. He released Moby Dick-Rehearsed(1955). Essentially a Film on his own screenplay of Moby Dick. which included Gordon Jackson, Christopher Lee, and Patrick McGoohan. This scene from the OTL 1956 adaptation with Welles in a cameo role is likely a close to what to expect:
Welles releases his version of Don Quixote(1958) with Francisco Reiguera for Universal as he was working for Desilu at the same time. This delays Touch of Evil(1962) as Heston was the one pushing for it and insisted Welles direct. Also butterflying away The Trial. He then does Catch-22(1965). He then does Chimes at Midnight(1968) and then The Deep(1973), followed by The Heroine(1978). He then has three final film made between 1980 and his death, possibly provided he survives his heart attack. The first is Batman around 1980 or so as ITTL the 1978 Superman film was directed by Steven Spielberg, leading them to look for bigger talent for the OTL delayed until 1989 Batman film. Another cancelled OTL Film The Dreamers followed around 1983 or so, with his final film being a French funded adaptation of King Lear, which was planned OTL but ended with his death.
Holy crap this is all amazing!
I was cautious about Citizen Kane being delayed honestly because of how much of a praised film it is that it almost feels like a lightning-in-a-bottle thing that should not be changed, but upon reading this whole post I can safely say that’s it’s a good thing to do. Does it still end up being praised as one of the greatest movies of all time?
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Also, will this mean that Citizen Kane wins Best Picture for 1946? If so then that’s undeniably a great thing for it, but also what happens to It’s a Wonderful Life? It originally won Best Picture of 1946 in your old Best Picture winners list.
It's a Wonderful Life would be nominated but not win. Also Sam Raimy's Spider-Man films do not exist ITTL anymore. Though Raimi makes a few Batman films and James Cameron works on Spider-Man.
Alfred Hitchcock
Hitchcock completes Number 13(1922), Always Tell Your Wife(1923) Woman to Woman(1923) The Pleasure Garden(1925), The Mountain Eagle(1926), The Lodger(1927), though in ITTL Hitchcock get his original idea and the killer is the lead as OTL he couldn't because of a mandate star Ivor Novello needed to always play a hero. His film Blackmail(1929) was made as a silent film. Possibly the last as OTL he was forced to make it a Talkie. Hitchcock directs the British Comedy Road House(1934), which OTL he switched with Maurice Elvey. Hitchcock also releases Forbidden Territory(1934) based on the novel of the same name. Then he makes Bulldog Drummond's Baby(1935), which OTL evolved into The Man Who Knew Too Much. Bulldog Drummond being a popular character at the time, which ITTL has had his racism toned down. The 39 Steps(1936) follows, then Young and Innocent(1937), with an OTL deleted scene kept in. The Lost Lady(1938) OTL's The Lady Vanishes follows. His next film is an OTL abandoned Titanic(1939) film.
Moving from the UK to the US. Hitchcock directs Escape(1940) with Norma Shearer, Robert Taylor and Conrad Veidt for MGM. As well as Rebecca(1940) which he has more creative control over. Then Foreign Correspondent(1940) with Gary Cooper and Joan Fontaine. Mr and Mrs. Smith(1941), still with Carole Lombard but with a different plot, more akin to the Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie film of the same name with more of a suspense thriller vibe(less shooting with big guns but more is the meal poisoned, is he ok with her shaving him? and so on). This butterflies Suspicion(1941) as Cary Grant plays a killer there and TTL's film includes the poisoned Milk effect(a light in a glass of milk) making it stand out in shadow). His next film is a sequel to The 39 Steps called Greenmantle(1942) with Cary Grant and Ingmar Bergman. Then Shadow of a Doubt(1943) Lifeboat(1944), and then a German Concentration Camps Factual Survey(1945) though that's a documentary editing actual footage of the atrocities of the Holocaust. Spellbound(1946) was then released., which notable has Salvador Dali co-directed surreal Dream Sequences. He does Notorious(1947) and Directs Lawrence Olivier in Hamlet(1948), which moves the action to a then modern setting. This delays Rope(1949) by a year. As a result Under Capricorn is butterflied.
Stage Fright(1950) and Strangers on a Train(1951) follow. then The Bramble Bush(1953), Dial M for Murder(1954), Rear Window(1954), To Catch a Thief(1955), The Trouble with Harry(1956), Flamingo Feather(1956) with Jimmy Stewart and Grace Kelly. The Man Who Knew Too Much(1956) replaces The Wrong Man, but here is a retelling of the original film with details changed so it can stand on its own without the Bulldog Drummond Character as well as being made in color. No Bail for the Judge(1958) with Audrey Hepburn. The Wreck of the Mary Deare(1959) with Gary Cooper and Burt Lancaster. Psycho(1960)(which has to be made here as the book was released and Hitchcock bought all copies to preserve the twist). He then held the famous interview with Francois Truffaut. Hitchcock's next films are Among The Dead(1963)(TTL's Vertigo). He was then brought onboard for the James Bond Film From Russia With Love(1964). He released The Blind Man(1966) about a man played by Jimmy Stewart who receives a transplant of eyes from a Dead Man which causes him to have a flashback at Disneyland during a wild west show, discovering the man was murdered. He then returned for the James Bond Film Thunderball(1967) which includes elements from OTL's North by Northwest(Come along Missus....Bond). He then released Marnie(1969) with Grace Kelly, which OTL was planned before the Birds. It proves controversial as it is a more sexual and less thriller-esque film, leading him to make The Birds(1972) which helps to compliment an earlier Jaws Film by Steven Spielberg, who he meets and mentors rather than dismissing him like OTL. His last film is the OTL unfinished The Short Night(1976), before he retires, passing away in 1980.
Alfred Hitchcock
Hitchcock completes Number 13(1922), Always Tell Your Wife(1923) Woman to Woman(1923) The Pleasure Garden(1925), The Mountain Eagle(1926), The Lodger(1927), though in ITTL Hitchcock get his original idea and the killer is the lead as OTL he couldn't because of a mandate star Ivor Novello needed to always play a hero. His film Blackmail(1929) was made as a silent film. Possibly the last as OTL he was forced to make it a Talkie. Hitchcock directs the British Comedy Road House(1934), which OTL he switched with Maurice Elvey. Hitchcock also releases Forbidden Territory(1934) based on the novel of the same name. Then he makes Bulldog Drummond's Baby(1935), which OTL evolved into The Man Who Knew Too Much. Bulldog Drummond being a popular character at the time, which ITTL has had his racism toned down. The 39 Steps(1936) follows, then Young and Innocent(1937), with an OTL deleted scene kept in. The Lost Lady(1938) OTL's The Lady Vanishes follows. His next film is an OTL abandoned Titanic(1939) film.
Moving from the UK to the US. Hitchcock directs Escape(1940) with Norma Shearer, Robert Taylor and Conrad Veidt for MGM. As well as Rebecca(1940) which he has more creative control over. Then Foreign Correspondent(1940) with Gary Cooper and Joan Fontaine. Mr and Mrs. Smith(1941), still with Carole Lombard but with a different plot, more akin to the Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie film of the same name with more of a suspense thriller vibe(less shooting with big guns but more is the meal poisoned, is he ok with her shaving him? and so on). This butterflies Suspicion(1941) as Cary Grant plays a killer there and TTL's film includes the poisoned Milk effect(a light in a glass of milk) making it stand out in shadow). His next film is a sequel to The 39 Steps called Greenmantle(1942) with Cary Grant and Ingmar Bergman. Then Shadow of a Doubt(1943) Lifeboat(1944), and then a German Concentration Camps Factual Survey(1945) though that's a documentary editing actual footage of the atrocities of the Holocaust. Spellbound(1946) was then released., which notable has Salvador Dali co-directed surreal Dream Sequences. He does Notorious(1947) and Directs Lawrence Olivier in Hamlet(1948), which moves the action to a then modern setting. This delays Rope(1949) by a year. As a result Under Capricorn is butterflied.
Stage Fright(1950) and Strangers on a Train(1951) follow. then The Bramble Bush(1953), Dial M for Murder(1954), Rear Window(1954), To Catch a Thief(1955), The Trouble with Harry(1956), Flamingo Feather(1956) with Jimmy Stewart and Grace Kelly. The Man Who Knew Too Much(1956) replaces The Wrong Man, but here is a retelling of the original film with details changed so it can stand on its own without the Bulldog Drummond Character as well as being made in color. No Bail for the Judge(1958) with Audrey Hepburn. The Wreck of the Mary Deare(1959) with Gary Cooper and Burt Lancaster. Psycho(1960)(which has to be made here as the book was released and Hitchcock bought all copies to preserve the twist). He then held the famous interview with Francois Truffaut. Hitchcock's next films are Among The Dead(1963)(TTL's Vertigo). He was then brought onboard for the James Bond Film From Russia With Love(1964). He released The Blind Man(1966) about a man played by Jimmy Stewart who receives a transplant of eyes from a Dead Man which causes him to have a flashback at Disneyland during a wild west show, discovering the man was murdered. He then returned for the James Bond Film Thunderball(1967) which includes elements from OTL's North by Northwest(Come along Missus....Bond). He then released Marnie(1969) with Grace Kelly, which OTL was planned before the Birds. It proves controversial as it is a more sexual and less thriller-esque film, leading him to make The Birds(1972) which helps to compliment an earlier Jaws Film by Steven Spielberg, who he meets and mentors rather than dismissing him like OTL. His last film is the OTL unfinished The Short Night(1976), before he retires, passing away in 1980.
A quick one for Edgar Wright, but the main one is Scott Pilgrim vs the World is delayed, likely released as an animated series(ironically like it is being released now). This results in World's End releasing in 2010. He also doesn't work on Tintin as that is released much earlier. His Ant-Man Film is released in 2013. From Dusk Till Shawn in 2017 and ITTL Baby Driver In 2021.
A shame, but alas, I’ve kinda learned to accept that about this timeline, even if it feels just a little bit wrong to me personally.
It’s awesome to see that Hitchcock was able to finish Number 13 and that presumably The Mountain Eagle isn’t lost, despite what his personal feelings were on them IOTL.
1939 Titanic? Nice.
That’s a really cool and interesting concept that Mr. and Mrs. Smith is released earlier in the 1940s here compared to the 2000s IOTL, although looking on Wikipedia it was indeed a real film so that’s cool to learn about. I can imagine how different it would be with it being in black-and-white and with it starring Golden Age actors and actresses.
Hopefully his non-fiction film on the Holocaust helps spread awareness here like IOTL.
Yeah, I had a feeling that Psycho would be the same as OTL, just hope that Anthony Perkins is in the film, I like that guy.
The Birds being delayed is interesting but I think not only makes sense, but will end up making the movie better ITTL instead of giving the corny and campy feeling it has IOTL by being released in the 1960s instead of the 1970s.
And it’s nice that Hitchcock is nice to Spielberg unlike OTL, alongside him being able to finish his final film before retiring and passing away.
Good stuff. I always had a feeling that The World’s End should’ve been released in 3010, to fit in a 3-year-pattern. Shaun of the Dead in 2004, Hot Fuzz in 2007, and The World’s End in 2010!
A Scott Pilgrim vs. The World Cartoon sounds great! I’ve heard people wanting one for years now and seeing the fan-made animated clips on YouTube I can definitely see why, alongside the excitement for the recent Netflix trailer right now.
Ant-Man? Nice, I like Ant-Man IOTL so this should be a cool combination.
A Shaun of the Dead sequel sounds promising, as a fan of the original film.
And Baby Driver being delayed ITTL sounds about just right. Hopefully Kevin Spacey isn’t a bad person, and that Ansel Egort is either replaced or that he doesn’t get involved with any sexual assault allegations ITTL.
A project I would love to see in this timeline is basically a Shogun Warriors revival, which was the original version of the Super Robot Wars games.
I don’t want to bombard you with questions Marco, as you’re still doing research and work and all of that stuff, and I will await any updates patiently, but I’m also curious about anything you have planned for actors like Charlie Chaplin, Lon Chaney, Conrad Veidt, Javier Bardem, and Heath Ledger.