Yet another Tudor POD...

[vandevere]

Prince Edmund, Duke of Somerset survives, and marries and has kids.

Edmund was born 4/21/1499, and would come to be of marriageable age around 1515 or so. Since, at that particular time Henry VIII was still on good terms with Catharine of Aragon, I thought it possible Henry would marry his brother to one of Joanna of Castile's daughters.

Isabelle-born 1502- was just the right age for marrying Edmund, and-since OtL she was married in 1514-I thought maybe for Edmund's sake the wedding ATL could take place in 1515.

Since we have no idea what Edmund was like-mentally, physically, or emotionally-I have some what arbitrarily decided that he's healthy, and rather more like his father-Henry VII-in temperament.

He and Isabelle have children, including three sons; Henry(1516) Edward(1519), and Edmund(1523)

Now, here's the issue...

Suppose Henry VIII has the same problems he had ATL, no male heirs. Would he simply thank the Good Lord that he has Edmund and Edmund's three sons; or will he do what he did ATL, and get divorced, marry Anne Boleyn, and separate from the Catholic Church?

And if he does do all of that, where will that put Edmund and his family?

And what would the rest of Europe do with Edmund and his family?

Please be gentle with me, it's my very first POD...

 

[Pericles]

Henry would probably want to have his own issue and do the same. While others may think it's not worth the trouble, Henry VIII would push ahead as IOTL. I suspect Edmund would join the new religion and he(if he's still alive) would play an important role in the regency of Edward VI. If Edward dies as IOTL then Edmund could claim the crown and as a male beat Elizabeth and Mary. But,much could be butterflied away...

 

[zert]

Could be possible that Henry might have Mary marry Edmund's Henry. They are both born in the same year and thus Henry's legacy could live through their kids.

 

[Deleted member 5909]

Edmund was born 4/21/1499, and would come to be of marriageable age around 1515 or so. Since, at that particular time Henry VIII was still on good terms with Catharine of Aragon, I thought it possible Henry would marry his brother to one of Joanna of Castile's daughters.

Isabelle-born 1502- was just the right age for marrying Edmund, and-since OtL she was married in 1514-I thought maybe for Edmund's sake the wedding ATL could take place in 1515.

Okay, a few problems here. In 1514, Cardinal Wolsey negotiated a peace agreement with France that brought England's involvement with the War of the League of Cambrai to an end. This is immensely relevant, since it resulted in Mary Tudor's marriage in OTL to Louis XII, instead of Charles V. Henry VIII at this time (or rather the pro-French Wolsey as chief minister) was interested in bringing about a détente with the Valois, having been frustrated by the fact that Ferdinand II of Aragon couldn't be trusted and the alliance had brought him nothing in the way of territorial gains.

So, most likely, a French match is proposed for Edmund at this time, perhaps with Louis' daughter Renée (there really aren't any other suitable candidates at this point). As she is only a child at this point, it's likely that the betrothal stands for a few years then, once war breaks out again between England and France in 1521, Edmund repudiates her and is instead matched with a bride to cement the renewed Anglo-Imperial relations. If Henry VIII is still without male issue at this point, that might factor in to the push to see his brother married as well and not wait for the French princess.

In any case, Edmund will probably marry around the early 1520's, given contemporary events. As to who is chosen as his bride, I haven't the slightest idea. Perhaps Beatrice of Portugal ?

He and Isabelle have children, including three sons; Henry(1516) Edward(1519), and Edmund(1523)

Given the track record of Henry VII's children, I think that three healthy sons might be a bit of a stretch. Not necessarily impossible, just a bit difficult to achieve. Apart from Henry and his own problems with siring an heir, Margaret Tudor had eight children, of which only two survived infancy and Mary Tudor had four children, of which only two survived. The Tudors weren't exactly the most fertile lot.

Suppose Henry VIII has the same problems he had ATL, no male heirs. Would he simply thank the Good Lord that he has Edmund and Edmund's three sons; or will he do what he did ATL, and get divorced, marry Anne Boleyn, and separate from the Catholic Church?

The existence of a brother as heir presumptive will probably ease Henry's problems in this scenario and mitigate a potential succession crisis. Perhaps he remarries, however, after Catherine's death, assuming she is still struck down by cancer as in OTL.

Most likely he will not break with the Church, given his piety, although whether an English Reformation still occurs in the reign of Henry's successor isn't an easy question to answer. As a whole, England is believed to have been very devout at this point. Even as late as the accession of Edward VI in OTL, the Protestants were a small minority concentrated amongst the educated gentry in London--a powerful minority, mind you, but a small one. And, of course, there very well might be a king who comes along and realises how profitable it would be to dissolve the monasteries and Church lands for the Crown...

 

[Emperor Constantine]

OK out of curiosity, WHY would Emperor Maximilian (who would be Isabella's guardian) marry his granddaughter to a brother of the English King, instead of King Christian of Denmark? Not being mean but it doesn't make much sense.

 

[Deleted member 5909]

OK out of curiosity, WHY would Emperor Maximilian (who would be Isabella's guardian) marry his granddaughter to a brother of the English King, instead of King Christian of Denmark? Not being mean but it doesn't make much sense.

My thoughts exactly. Apart from what I mentioned earlier, about a French alliance being more likely in the period between 1514 and 1521, I think it's worth remembering that in OTL, it was decided not waste Eleanor of Austria on the Danish king, since Maximilian had more grand plans in store for her. I find it unlikely that Isabella would be similarly wasted on the Duke of Somerset.

Henry would probably want to have his own issue and do the same. While others may think it's not worth the trouble, Henry VIII would push ahead as IOTL. I suspect Edmund would join the new religion and he(if he's still alive) would play an important role in the regency of Edward VI. If Edward dies as IOTL then Edmund could claim the crown and as a male beat Elizabeth and Mary. But,much could be butterflied away...

Given the POD, I highly doubt Edward VI will even be born. Remember, Henry VIII was nothing if not a sincere Catholic all of his life. Any flirtation with reform was purely along the Erasmian 'middle way' (hence the early closing of some of the smaller and more corrupt religious houses under Wolsely's tenure as first minister). Protestantism horrified him, to say the least, and he was well educated in theology (perhaps more so than any of his contemporary monarchs).

It is true that Henry VIII had real concerns about his marriage to Catherine of Aragon, but given his theological expertise, the Biblical prohibition on marrying one's brother's widow and the lack of sons from the marriage, that is no surprise (indeed, the issue was bothering him as early as the mid 1520's, before he even met Anne). However, breaking with Rome is not something he's going to enter into lightly, especially with a surviving brother around. In OTL, it was only out of desperation; had things gone differently and the Sack of Rome not occurred, it is likely that the Pope would have even granted him his annulment.

At the very most, I can see him separating from Catherine for moral reasons, if the Pope doesn't grant him what he wants and remarrying after her death. However, to be perfectly honest, I don't even see him pushing the issue that far in this scenario. As I have said, there will be far less pressure and justification for his actions with the Duke of Somerset around.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

That is similar to what I was thinking. Henry was so obsessed with having a son because he (Henry) was the only male Tudor and his heir was a girl. The last time England had a female heir, a decade long civil war occurred. So with a surviving brother, the pressure, from the country and Henry's own head, would be lessened, especially if Henry had a few male line nephews. Though I would be interesting to see who succeeds him, Edmund or ATL Mary (assuming Mary is even born. Hell a semi-healthy boy could be born instead).

 

[Deleted member 5909]

Though I would be interesting to see who succeeds him, Edmund or ATL Mary (assuming Mary is even born. Hell a semi-healthy boy could be born instead).

It's a difficult question to answer. There really isn't a clear precedent in English constitutional law at this time for female succession. If Henry VIII fails to sire a son, it's possible that he'll simply use Parliament to settle the succession on the Duke of Somerset (which could have the effect of creating some interesting precedents in the understanding of the laws of succession).

Of course, Somerset's success depends a great deal on his popularity, support and power base. He'll be nearing forty-eight if Henry dies in 1547 as in OTL and he is still alive. If he has sons of his own, he may be a far more stable candidate in the eyes of the realm than Mary. After all, the constitutionality of a queen regnant was untested and, given the time period, a lot of people are going to have reservations for a host of other reasons.

Then again, it depends on who Mary weds (again, assuming she or an ATL equivalent is born in this scenario and Henry VIII fails to sire a son). If it's a foreign prince, Somerset's chances increase a great deal, especially if that prince happens to be a foreign king. This situation could also possibly lead to a war of succession over Mary's rights, depending on the state of Somerset's support, Mary's husband and his country's relations with England at the time.

ATL Mary could also be wed to Somerset's son, in order to tidy up the succession, if he's close enough to her in age (with things made even easier if Somerset predeceases his brother). Then, of course, there is the question as to if Mary and her husband will rule jointly, if Mary will be queen regnant and her husband king consort or if Mary will only be queen consort and her husband king (as with Henry VII and Elizabeth of York)? Whatever happens, as I have said, there will be serious consequences for English constitutional law on the matter of the future succession.

As you say, this all assumes that Henry VIII fails to produce a surviving son in this scenario. It's just as possible for him to produce a surviving son with Catherine in this scenario (or no children at all) or for him to remarry after her death and father a male heir who succeeds as a minor--in which case a surviving Somerset would undoubtedly hold the regency.

 

[JedidiahStott]

Those precedents are counted in sword blades.

All this of course assumes that Edmund survives.

 

[Rich Rostrom]

Prince Edmund, Duke of Somerset survives, and marries and has kids.

I have very little to contribute to serious discussion of this PoD.

So I'll just mention Prince of Hearts, by Katy Cooper: an AH Harlequin romance with exactly this PoD. Well, the PoD is actually that Arthur, Henry, and Edmund all grow up.

Arthur is king, happily married to Catherine. Henry, as in OTL, is a golden boy (athlete, musician, wit) and flaming jerk.

Edmund is Arthur's trusted agent, and the love interest.

Incidentally, nowhere in the cover or blurbs is there any explanation that this is AH, nor is there an intro.

 

[Alpha Trion]

The survival of Edmund, Duke of Somerset would have had some interesting consequences in English history. The existence of a male Tudor heir would have butterflied away the obsession of Henry VIII to have a son. If Henry VIII were to only have daughters in TTL, then the natural husband for his oldest daughter (lets call her Mary) would be Somerset’s heir. Henry VIII could not afford to marry off Mary to any foreign prince without setting up a civil war between Mary and Somerset. As for whether or not Mary would be queen regnant or queen consort, I can’t really say. I may depend on the mood of Henry VIII and whether he trusts the ability of his nephew to rule while still respecting Mary.

In TTL, the possibility of Henry VIII still having a son should not be ignored. It’s true that he would have stayed married to Catherine in TTL, but Henry would still have likely outlived her in TTL. There may still be an Edward VI born in this scenario he just won’t be the child of Henry VIII and Jane Seymour. With Henry being a widower and still Catholic in this TTL, he would have his pick of princesses wanting to be queen of England. The wife Henry chose in TTL would depend on whom he wanted to ally with either Spain or France. In the event of Henry’s death, Somerset (either his brother or his nephew/son in law) would be regent for Edward VI in this scenario.

 

[Velasco]

The obvious match for Mary OTL was James V, and yet the union was never seriously considered on either side; the Scots preferred a French Queen and the English a Spanish match.

 

[Ladymadchan]

The obvious match for Mary OTL was James V, and yet the union was never seriously considered on either side; the Scots preferred a French Queen and the English a Spanish match.

I agree about that one. James V had the potential to be the Ferdinand to Mary's Isabella.

 

[JedidiahStott]

Henry wasn't that silly. That marriage could only be dictated with an English army in Edinburgh and an English governor in Stirling Castle.

 

[JedidiahStott]

The survival of Edmund, Duke of Somerset would have had some interesting consequences in English history. The existence of a male Tudor heir would have butterflied away the obsession of Henry VIII to have a son. If Henry VIII were to only have daughters in TTL, then the natural husband for his oldest daughter (lets call her Mary) would be Somerset’s heir. Henry VIII could not afford to marry off Mary to any foreign prince without setting up a civil war between Mary and Somerset. As for whether or not Mary would be queen regnant or queen consort, I can’t really say. I may depend on the mood of Henry VIII and whether he trusts the ability of his nephew to rule while still respecting Mary.

True . Very true. Thus why Mary was not married young. Henry could not abase himself by marrying her off to an insignificant far off prince , who could pose no threat. But marriage to a powerful prince, or a powerful domestic noble was too dangerous. For Henry.

The law as to the (possible) succession of a woman was VERY unclear. There was certainly no enabling precedent, and such precedents as there were tended to incline to a very limited succession right , if any, for a daughter.

We tend to look back at how remarkably successful Mary and Elizabeth were , and assume that contemporaries also had that knowledge. But they did not, of course.

My own opinion (it can be no more than a personal assessment) is that , given a lawful male heir (eg Somerset, father or son), then the nobles would have gone for male succession over female. Ie King Edmund, First since the Conquest.

It was only the complete lack of any even remotely close male heir that gave Mary a (relatively) unchallenged succession.

Which of course assumes that Henry doesn't see that and take steps to prevent it. No shortage of axes in Tudor England.

 

[Alpha Trion]

I agree with previous posters that James V of Scotland would have been the ideal husband for Mary in OTL. A marriage between them would have provided many benefits to their respective kingdoms. Scotland could have provided Mary with a powerbase to combat any attempt to remove her from the English throne. However, in TTL, they would have to deal with Somerset and the party of nobles that would form around him in this scenario. Somerset is going to have a formidable powerbase in TTL just off the lands Henry VII would give him. If Henry VIII has good relations with his brother, then Somerset’s powerbase should grow during his brother’s reign. By the time of Henry’s death, the duke of Somerset would be the most powerful noble in England with a strong claim to the throne. The dukes of Somerset would have a similar position in TTL to what the dukes of York had in OTL throughout the fifteenth century and we all know how that story ended. Why would Henry ignore history in TTL (as well as ignore an actual male Tudor) and marry Mary to anyone else?

 

[JedidiahStott]

Hen VII was as cunning as a fox ODed on weasel pills. If his son Edmund inherits that, what odds Edmund is going to be on whatever side of the 16C religious controversies that Henry VIII is not.

Either Edmund, stalwart defender of the Holy Catholic Faith and arch enemy of heretics; or, Edmund, stalwart champion of reform and freedom against Papist superstition and mummery. Depending on which way *Henry rolls.

Quite a useful leader for the *Pilgrimage of Grace.

 

[Alpha Trion]

If Edmund were as cunning as his father, Henry VII, in TTL I doubt he would be foolhardy enough to jeopardize his (and/or his heirs) chance to inherit the throne. I am sure he would have disagreements with Henry VIII over religion, foreign policy, and other things. But a cunning Edmund would know that the best way to run England his way is to be king. So long as there is a possibility he and/or his heirs could rule England it would be stupid to lead a rebellion against Henry VIII over anything. A cunning Edmund would be the person Henry VIII would send to crush rebellions. A dumb and/or religious zealot Edmund might challenge his brother but not a cunning one because he would have simply too much to lose. Also to follow the discussion in another thread about whom Edmund would marry, I believe whomever he married would have a pivotal role in just how Edmund would act. If he were married to a foreign princess, Edmund might use his in laws for support if he needed it. Henry VIII might allow Edmund to marry (if available) a wealthy English heiress which could increase Somerset’s power base to dangerous levels.