WI: US Army 75's for the KNIL?

[HJ Tulp]

When the Wehrmacht conquered Western Europe in 1940 the Netherlands East Indies (N.E.I.) lost it's arms suppliers. Because of the Japanese threat the Royal Netherlands Indies Army (KNIL) was in the middle of a drastic reorganization that would transform it from a police force into a army that would be able to fight a mechanized war by the end of 1942. A different source for weapons had to be found and already on the 16th of May the KNIL Purchasing Commission was set up. It was hoped that the United States could replace the European suppliers. The Dutch faced a couple of problems, the biggest being:

1. The United States government seriously doubted that the Dutch would be willing to defend the N.E.I. in case of a Japanese attack. The Americans did not want to supply arms only to see them fall in hands of Japan. A large part of this suspicion was because the N.E.I. government did it's upmost best to stay neutral. The reason for this was that the UK (and the US for that matter) refused to guarentee the territorial integrity of the colony, so siding very clearly with the Allies would do nothing to add to its security and even give Japan a casus belli.
2. The British Purchasing Commission was prioritised and bought almost all possible arms, leaving only scraps for other countries.

Both problems would subside a bit as time went on. The political situation shifted and US production rose. South East Asia would never be on the top of the priority-list though and in 1942 the KNIL would face the IJA underarmed, among other problems of course.

Reading through Paradise in Peril: Western colonial powers and Japanese expansion in South East Asia, 1905-1941, I came across this little snippet:

One of the weapons of which the U.S. Armories possessed a large stock, was the World War I vintage 75 mm field gun. On 1 June 1940, when the decision had been made to replacee the 75 mm gun by the 105 mm howitzer as Regimental Artillery, a total surplus of this type existed numbering 4.236 guns. About 120 of these guns would have increased d the KNIL's firepower dramatically against a foe, who was also underequipped with 75 mmm field guns. No indication has been found, however, to prove that KNIL HQ ever asked for such a delivery, probably because the Netherlands' Purchasing Commission NPC were unaware of the existence of the American surplus.

This being a political history there is no mention of the exact type but AFAICT this was the French-made M1897A2/3 and the US made M1897A4. I can't confirm there were actually 4,236 guns available though. What I can find is the following:

In June 1940, with many British field guns lost in the Battle of France, 895 M1897 field guns and a million rounds of ammunition were purchased from the US Army. For political purposes, the sale to the British Purchasing Commission was made through the US Steel Corporation.[12] The basic, unmodified gun was known in British service as "Ordnance, QF, 75mm Mk 1", although many of the guns were issued to units on converted or updated mountings.

The question is now: were those 895 field guns all that could be sold? Or could the KNIL actually get 120 guns this way and vastly improve its fire power? This almost doubles the number of KNIL field artillery, could this give the IJA a nasty suprise when it lands on Java?

 

[marathag]

The question is now: were those 895 field guns all that could be sold? Or could the KNIL actually get 120 guns this way and vastly improve its fire power? This almost doubles the number of KNIL field artillery, could this give the IJA a nasty suprise when it lands on Java?

or the M1916 and M1917 75mm guns
OTL hundreds were sold/given to the UK and the Finns and Greeks in 1940

Not much of a PoD to skim some off for the Dutch, rather than going to the UK after Dunkirk, where they would be used for training

 

[formion]

Did the KNIL have enough artillerymen to utilize the additional 120 guns?

 

[HJ Tulp]

or the M1916 and M1917 75mm guns
OTL hundreds were sold/given to the UK and the Finns and Greeks in 1940

Not much of a PoD to skim some off for the Dutch, rather than going to the UK after Dunkirk, where they would be used for training

Did the US Army declare ALL their 75 mm calibre guns obsolete at the same time? Do you have any idea if they indeed numbered over 4,000?

 

[jsb]

Not the Dutch but what about sending them to US forces in the pacific?

Would they not be useful in Philippines or even dug in on Wake?

 

[SsgtC]

Not the Dutch but what about sending them to US forces in the pacific?

Would they not be useful in Philippines or even dug in on Wake?

That's honestly what's more likely to happen. If any guns are getting sent to the Pacific, they're going American units first. Probably the Philippines, Midway, Wake and Guam.

 

[HJ Tulp]

Did the KNIL have enough artillerymen to utilize the additional 120 guns?

Right away? Certainly not. There is no reason why they can't be trained though.

Not the Dutch but what about sending them to US forces in the pacific?

Would they not be useful in Philippines or even dug in on Wake?

AFAICT the 75's were replaced by 105 mm howitzers. I assume that the US army didn't want to have the logistical hassle of different caliber guns.

That's honestly what's more likely to happen. If any guns are getting sent to the Pacific, they're going American units first. Probably the Philippines, Midway, Wake and Guam.

Why? OTL they were scrapped except for the 800 ones they gave to the Britons. There is no reason why the US Army would suddenly decide to keep a bunch around. Don't forget, they have brand new 105 mm howitzers on the way.

 

[formion]

From https://history.army.mil/books/wwii/csppp/ch10.htm

Little success had attended Army efforts in the spring of 1940 to halt the release abroad of other Army-owned munitions for which the hard-pressed Anglo-French mission was then pleading. On 22 May, the day when General Marshall resisted the Treasury's airplane proposal, the Chief of Ordnance provided the Chief of Staff with a list of ordnance items that might be released without imperiling the national defense. It was strikingly close to an Anglo-French request of the day before, and included 500,000 Enfield rifles, 100,000,000 rounds of .30-caliber ammunition, 500 75-mm. guns, 35,000 unmodified machine guns and automatic rifles, and 500 3-inch mortars with 50,000 rounds of ammunition

It doesn't seem ASB that the KNIL could also land some mortars and machine guns.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

AFAICT the 75's were replaced by 105 mm howitzers. I assume that the US army didn't want to have the logistical hassle of different caliber guns.

Why? OTL they were scrapped except for the 800 ones they gave to the Britons. There is no reason why the US Army would suddenly decide to keep a bunch around. Don't forget, they have brand new 105 mm howitzers on the way.

The US remounted the 75mm guns on half tracks and used them into 1944 as infantry support/anti tank guns. They were also used for training into 1942. Yes once 1942 rolled around they started to be scrapped, but before then they were not just sitting around AFAIK

 

[jsb]

AFAICT the 75's were replaced by 105 mm howitzers. I assume that the US army didn't want to have the logistical hassle of different caliber guns.

I would think they would do fine in the east as static mostly beach defence guns that would only need a few shells before they get overrun anyway? Say 20 or so left on Wake or 120 dug into the line on Bataan Peninsula would require very little logistics support or crew just firing over open sights by semi trained crews against landing craft etc.

Why? OTL they were scrapped except for the 800 ones they gave to the Britons. There is no reason why the US Army would suddenly decide to keep a bunch around. Don't forget, they have brand new 105 mm howitzers on the way.

What state where they in when scraped (and when) as I cant see working guns getting scraped in 39-43 period as even obsolescent training guns would be sparse?

 

[Butchpfd]

Another option, would be to open an earlier production line for Pack 75 mm howitzers, at Rock Island Arsenal. Between 1 Jan 1940, and 31 December 1941, 188 howitzers were produced, by going to 3 shifts and a second production line.Between 1 Jan, 1942, and 31 December 1942, 1280 howitzers were produced.

Had the Dutch placed such an order in early 1940, perhaps 300 could have been produced and shipped and in the NEI priortothe outbreak of the war.

 

[Driftless]

Another option, would be to open an earlier production line for Pack 75 mm howitzers, at Rock Island Arsenal. Between 1 Jan 1940, and 31 December 1941, 188 howitzers were produced, by going to 3 shifts and a second production line.Between 1 Jan, 1942, and 31 December 1942, 1280 howitzers were produced.

Had the Dutch placed such an order in early 1940, perhaps 300 could have been produced and shipped and in the NEI priortothe outbreak of the war.

If they were available, that should be a good choice for the DEI environment. Tow them where you can, break them down and haul by pack animal (water buffalo, carabao?) where towing won't work.

 

[Butchpfd]

If they were available, that should be a good choice for the DEI environment. Tow them where you can, break them down and haul by pack animal (water buffalo, carabao?) where towing won't work.

The production line existed at Rock island, 1 line, 1 shift per day, add 2 additional shifts in mid to late 1940, rather then fall of 1941. Even better add the 2nd production line in early mid 1941 rather then after the American entry into the war.

 

[Father Maryland]

Did the US Army declare ALL their 75 mm calibre guns obsolete at the same time? Do you have any idea if they indeed numbered over 4,000?

Before Pearl Harbor but after the US started supplying the Brits with arms a pretty common tactic the Roosevelt administration used to get around various pacifistic and isolationist laws was to declare large amounts of equipment obsolete at the same time. A lot of it was older and some was poorly maintained but most of it was still useful for secondary theaters and freeing up first line equipment for top priority areas. This included equipment (including aircraft) that was literally brand spanking new (if not necessarily top of the line) at the declaration of them being obsolete.

 

[Driftless]

^^^^Weren't some US Army tanks sold to Canada as scrap metal?

 

[SsgtC]

^^^^Weren't some US Army tanks sold to Canada as scrap metal?

Yet another common tactic. Mass amounts of equipment was sold as "scrap" despite being fully operational

 

[McPherson]

^^^^Weren't some US Army tanks sold to Canada as scrap metal?

M1917s (US version of FT17s sent to Canada to beef up their tank schools.) about 250 sent north to be turned "into razor blades" on paper, actually wind up in Canadian tank schools (Training assets for such outfits as the Fort Gary Horse.).

 

[Father Maryland]

Another idea would be sending some of the many thousands of old WW1 era US 37mm "Trench Guns" to the Philippines and the DEI. Light enough that they don't require motor transport that neither has and should be capable of dealing with most Japanese tanks. Probably they'd be very useful as boat guns.

 

[Llewwyy]

M1917s (US version of FT17s sent to Canada to beef up their tank schools.) about 250 sent north to be turned "into razor blades" on paper, actually wind up in Canadian tank schools (Training assets for such outfits as the Fort Gary Horse.).

You must be from Winnipeg. North end?