WI: The Norman Yoke Theory becomes more Prevalent?

[da Racontor]

For those that do not know the Norman Yoke was a theory that popped up several times in English thought. It basically states that the when the Normans invaded they imposed the terrible yoke of feudalism on the Anglo-Saxon people. It often idealized the Anglo-Saxons, and was a way to blame all the countries problem on the Normans and Catholicism. (link to the Wikipedia article)

As what points (pre-1900s) could this theory gain enough traction to severely change English government and culture? And what would those changes look like?

 

[Thomas1195]

For those that do not know the Norman Yoke was a theory that popped up several times in English thought. It basically states that the when the Normans invaded they imposed the terrible yoke of feudalism on the Anglo-Saxon people. It often idealized the Anglo-Saxons, and was a way to blame all the countries problem on the Normans and Catholicism. (link to the Wikipedia article)

As what points (pre-1900s) could this theory gain enough traction to severely change English government and culture? And what would those changes look like?

The ideal case is to construct a scenario in which the OTL English Civil War occurs but the Monarchy is Plantagenet.

England/Britain would be more likely to become a republic ITTL.

 

[PNWKing]

Sounds a little Mad to me.....like Madnessverse.

 

[mrmandias]

The simplest effect might just be people with aristocratic French names changing the names. Either to the more English-sounding names of their estates, or just Englishing their existing name, or else using diligent and creative genealogists to, ah, discover their Anglo-Saxon ancestry.

In the 19th C., this could lead to a stronger fad for AS names and maybe even an Anglish fad, though I think it might change a few words here and there but not actually change the language significantly. Though maybe also in the 19th it leads to Old English replacing Greek or even Latin as a widespread object of study in public schools.

 

[Dan1988]

Could it be seen as a parallel to the Tatar yoke in Russia, in that case?

 

[NolanFoster]

The Reformation, the English Civil War era, or the Glorious Revolution are the obvious best opportunities. Could also have been emphasized much more strongly in whig and radical narratives in the 18th and 19th centuries.

To build on what mrmandias said, a major linguistic purity movement (like Anglish) in Britain could lead American and British English to diverge much more aggressively. Non-Germanic vocabulary could be something largely associated with the less educated (irony) and with Americans. Interesting to see what cultural implications that might have down the line.

 

[Pesterfield]

Could a movement like this prevent importing European monarchs and looking for the descendant of a monarch from the island?

 

[The Professor]

The simplest effect might just be people with aristocratic French names changing the names. Either to the more English-sounding names of their estates or else using diligent and creative genealogists to discover their Anglo-Saxon ancestry

I think we see this more. An increase in anglicisation of Norman/French names. Interestingly most modern pronunciation of names like Robert, Henry, William, etc are close to what Old English was or could simplify to, even if their spellings are less so.
Biggest differences. being George, James, John, etc.
Of course you were mostly referring to surnames.

 

[mrmandias]

The Reformation, the English Civil War era, or the Glorious Revolution are the obvious best opportunities. Could also have been emphasized much more strongly in whig and radical narratives in the 18th and 19th centuries.

To build on what mrmandias said, a major linguistic purity movement (like Anglish) in Britain could lead American and British English to diverge much more aggressively. Non-Germanic vocabulary could be something largely associated with the less educated (irony) and with Americans. Interesting to see what cultural implications that might have down the line.

Divergence would be possible, but not likely. The Norman Yoke was always a Whig-type narrative and would be just as congenial to Americans as to any other English.

 

[mrmandias]

Possible other effects: a stronger emphasis on the 'ancient rights of Englishmen' could lead the Declaration of Independence to be less about universal rights and more about the 'free Anglo-Saxon heritage since time immemorial' etc. etc. That could have significant knock-on effects. Ironically it could lead to a greater role for racist theories of various kinds. It would fit pretty well with a Confederate 'white democracy' concept, for instance.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Possible other effects: a stronger emphasis on the 'ancient rights of Englishmen' could lead the Declaration of Independence to be less about universal rights and more about the 'free Anglo-Saxon heritage since time immemorial' etc. etc. That could have significant knock-on effects. Ironically it could lead to a greater role for racist theories of various kinds. It would fit pretty well with a Confederate 'white democracy' concept, for instance.

An alt USA that embraces its Anglo-Saxon heritage more is an interesting prospect.

Perhaps TTL there isn't a union of the crowns either - would be really awkward to push a heavily Saxon founding myth for England with Scotland (and Wales to a lesser extent) around, which might lead to bigger knock-on effects given the contribution Scotland and its people has had on Anglo-American history on both sides of the pond.

 

[Thomas1195]

The Reformation, the English Civil War era, or the Glorious Revolution are the obvious best opportunities. Could also have been emphasized much more strongly in whig and radical narratives in the 18th and 19th centuries.

To build on what mrmandias said, a major linguistic purity movement (like Anglish) in Britain could lead American and British English to diverge much more aggressively. Non-Germanic vocabulary could be something largely associated with the less educated (irony) and with Americans. Interesting to see what cultural implications that might have down the line.

It is obvious that the biggest POD is the English Civil War, because the whole theory emerged during that time period IOTL. And associating the Norman yokes to the Royalists is the easiest thing to do.

Expect a bloodier English Civil War down the road, with Restoration less likely.

 

[Thomas1195]

An alt USA that embraces its Anglo-Saxon heritage more is an interesting prospect.

Perhaps TTL there isn't a union of the crowns either - would be really awkward to push a heavily Saxon founding myth for England with Scotland (and Wales to a lesser extent) around, which might lead to bigger knock-on effects given the contribution Scotland and its people has had on Anglo-American history on both sides of the pond.

Well, they could make exceptions for Welsh and Scots as they were "native stocks" unlike Norman invaders.

 

[Thomas1195]

Could a movement like this prevent importing European monarchs and looking for the descendant of a monarch from the island?

Or becoming a republic?

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Well, they could make exceptions for Welsh and Scots as they were "native stocks" unlike Norman invaders.

They could play up Anglo-Saxon and Celtic solidarity (while conveniently ignoring the Irish).

 

[An Thuong]

or else using diligent and creative genealogists to, ah, discover their Anglo-Saxon ancestry.

One day in the 1650's every single Aristo discovers they're secretly an Arden, Berkeley or Swinton.

 

[The Professor]

Wes hal to everyone this anniversary of the Hastings tragedy ( )

 

[galanx]

Wes hal to everyone this anniversary of the Hastings tragedy ( )

And I thought the Lost Cause beliefs went back a ways . Of course there's the Battle of Kosovo (1369), the Ottomon seizure of Hagia Sophia, and this, where a Hindu nationalist jumps on the President of Taiwan who is thanking India for support against China by posting picture of her visiting the Taj Mahal, where he corrects her that the Taj is a hated symbol of the Muslim invaders

Hindu nationalists "correct" Tsai on Twitter: Taj Mahal isn't "ours"

tw.forumosa.com

 

[Thomas1195]

They could play up Anglo-Saxon and Celtic solidarity (while conveniently ignoring the Irish).

The Good Old Cause

 

[mrmandias]

It is obvious that the biggest POD is the English Civil War, because the whole theory emerged during that time period IOTL. And associating the Norman yokes to the Royalists is the easiest thing to do.

Expect a bloodier English Civil War down the road, with Restoration less likely.

I think the most likely POD would be that Oliver Cromwell has a competent, obvious successor. The new successor regime is going to need sustained propaganda to justify its legitimacy and forestall a restoration. The likely candidates are the Norman Yoke and 5th Monarchy, so assume the regime settles on the Norman Yoke, and then voila.

Coincidentally, Cromwell happens to be a good old Anglo-Saxon name. . . .