WI: Prince William, Duke of Gloucester lives to 21 instead of 11?

[Kellan Sullivan]

someone who believed God gave him the right to rule when actually the people did and got executed because he defied that (Charles I),

Charles I was not a Catholic. He was staunchly Anglican.

If you include the monarchs of Scotland in that too, you have Mary, Queen of Scots, who fought her people over her religion, spent decades imprisoned and tried to murder the legitimate Queen of England!

her Protestant subjects were the ones who rose against her. With the encouragement/support of that same English queen she supposedly tried to have murdered. At best, all Mary knew was that they were planning to do away with Elizabeth, she did not give the order or even know the details. Under legal standards, she'd get accomplice (maybe manslaughter at best).

And let's not forget how many Catholics Elizabeth had executed (aside from Mary). Some in far more brutal ways than her half-sister ever did. After all, neither Catholic Mary would've had a pregnant woman (St. Margaret Clitherow) executed. Of the Forty Martyrs of England and Wales, Elizabeth is responsible for the death of more than half (that's not counting the portion of the Seventy-Five Companion Martyrs of the English Reformation that she was responsible for). How many Protestants did Mary, QoS execute solely for their beliefs, not for any other reason like she'd made Protestantism treason? Did she have any executed without trial (like most of Elizabeth's half?) Did Mary, QoS pass a law forbidding the entry of Protestant ministers into her realm like Elizabeth did with the Jesuit Act of 1584?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Yep. Catholics would have done so much better if Charles II had sired a living child. As for him being Catholic, I was referring to his dead-bed conversion to the religion.

I do feel we're gettng rather lost in the weeds here, since all of this is well before William was even born (at best, Anne was two weeks pregnant with him when Bill landed at Torbay, assuming that he wasn't prem or something). So, I think we should ignore @Charles III Stuart 's hopes for a less religiously bigotted Britain, I don't see William (or his wife - who'll be Protestant) or his son changing that.

However, barring @Charles III Stuart 's dare-I-say obsession with an English monarch- the monarchy will still retain a lot of power that it lost OTL between 1714 and 1760. The Tories not having to endure their "forty years in the desert" due to the Hannovers being convinced they're nothing more than Jacobites- Anne was nothing less than a Tory, in fact, Sarah Churchill was the main Whig in her surroundings, since Carrots Somerset (William's governess OTL IIRC) was the "Tory Sarah"- means that parliament by...1760...is going to look very different to OTL. If we assume that William and Elisabeth Christine (I'm going with her for personal reasons, Karl VI can marry her sister, Charlotte. So England will still get a Habsburg "proxy") have a child ASAP...say...1707/1708, that means that child will be six when Grandma Queen dies. Six, and likely under the regency of their mother*. The regency would last for around a decade (depending on the situation, Anne's will might say one age, but regencies have been dispensed with sooner or extended for various reasons). And provided Elisabeth proves as capable in London as she did in Spain, I doubt we would see any more than the usual erosion of royal power during a regency (i.e. a slower, far more gradual slide than OTL. And one that would still be reversible by 1727-1730).

Not to mention the Jacobites movement is going to lose some serious clout. OTL, they used Geordie Whelps being a foreigner as "justification", to attract the moderates. Here, with a king who is born in London and brought up English, they'll have a far more difficult time of it, I'd imagine. The more moderate Jacobites will go with William's son (likely also William), while the diehards will either up and move to wherever the Jacobite court winds up (Emilia, maybe?) or keep their heads down.

*I foresee arguments being made for a "regency council" but Anne could probably exploit the divisions/distrust in parliament between Whig and Tories to impose Elisabeth Christine as sole regent.

 

[Valena]

Russian ( example and bordering on the absurd )

I remember how me and @Vladyslav accidentaly created a situation in his "independent Ukraine since 17th century" TL when there is an ORTHODOX claimant dynastically senior to Hanoverians in succession line (a Romanov prince heading a cadet branch ruling Ukraine marries Mlle de Conde, a granddaughter of Edward of Palatinate).
We had to introduce butterflies killing off OTL James II in 1670ies, because we did not know what to do with a situation "non-Catholic but non-Protestant person in British succession line" if things in Britain go as OTL.

 

[Nuraghe]

I do feel we're gettng rather lost in the weeds here, since all of this is well before William was even born (at best, Anne was two weeks pregnant with him when Bill landed at Torbay, assuming that he wasn't prem or something). So, I think we should ignore @Charles III Stuart 's hopes for a less religiously bigotted Britain, I don't see William (or his wife - who'll be Protestant) or his son changing that.

However, barring @Charles III Stuart 's dare-I-say obsession with an English monarch- the monarchy will still retain a lot of power that it lost OTL between 1714 and 1760. The Tories not having to endure their "forty years in the desert" due to the Hannovers being convinced they're nothing more than Jacobites- Anne was nothing less than a Tory, in fact, Sarah Churchill was the main Whig in her surroundings, since Carrots Somerset (William's governess OTL IIRC) was the "Tory Sarah"- means that parliament by...1760...is going to look very different to OTL. If we assume that William and Elisabeth Christine (I'm going with her for personal reasons, Karl VI can marry her sister, Charlotte. So England will still get a Habsburg "proxy") have a child ASAP...say...1707/1708, that means that child will be six when Grandma Queen dies. Six, and likely under the regency of their mother*. The regency would last for around a decade (depending on the situation, Anne's will might say one age, but regencies have been dispensed with sooner or extended for various reasons). And provided Elisabeth proves as capable in London as she did in Spain, I doubt we would see any more than the usual erosion of royal power during a regency (i.e. a slower, far more gradual slide than OTL. And one that would still be reversible by 1727-1730).

Not to mention the Jacobites movement is going to lose some serious clout. OTL, they used Geordie Whelps being a foreigner as "justification", to attract the moderates. Here, with a king who is born in London and brought up English, they'll have a far more difficult time of it, I'd imagine. The more moderate Jacobites will go with William's son (likely also William), while the diehards will either up and move to wherever the Jacobite court winds up (Emilia, maybe?) or keep their heads down.

*I foresee arguments being made for a "regency council" but Anne could probably exploit the divisions/distrust in parliament between Whig and Tories to impose Elisabeth Christine as sole regent.

I absolutely agree with everything you said, furthermore I believe that the most diehard Jacobites will certainly move to where Mary of Modena and her son will settle, given that Otl a fairly large number followed them, first to Saint Germain and then to Palazzo Mutti ( of including Protestants, who gave rise to the non-Catholic cemetery in Rome ) so it is likely to see a swarm of British exiles settle in Emilia over time ( similar to the Lorraine people who followed Francis I to Austria Otl ), which could become a serious competitor to the English factory in Livorno / Leghorn , given the rich trade that could flow through an Emilian duchy, given that it is located right in the center between Habsburg Milan, Venice, Savoy, Tuscany and the Papacy, given that its creation will lead to the removal of numerous customs barriers in the area compared to Otl

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I remember how me and @Vladyslav accidentaly created a situation in his "independent Ukraine since 17th century" TL when there is an ORTHODOX claimant dynastically senior to Hanoverians in succession line (a Romanov prince heading a cadet branch ruling Ukraine marries Mlle de Conde, a granddaughter of Edward of Palatinate).
We had to introduce butterflies killing off OTL James II in 1670ies, because we did not know what to do with a situation "non-Catholic but non-Protestant person in British succession line" if things in Britain go as OTL.

can you post a link please?

 

[Valena]

Мир Украинских Романовых - Форум Альтернативной Истории (ФАИ)

В 1660 году на трон Малой Руси приглашен младший брат московского царя

fai.org.ru

Here, in Russian.
But this is big offtopic, just a funny reminder to AHC-situation of a Romanov in succession line to British throne ahead of OTL George I (which we ended up butterflying away because we did not know what to do with that and whether a Russian whose dynastic claim is via his French mum would be accepted on technicality of not being Catholic).

 

[Nuraghe]

I absolutely agree with everything you said, furthermore I believe that the most diehard Jacobites will certainly move to where Mary of Modena and her son will settle, given that Otl a fairly large number followed them, first to Saint Germain and then to Palazzo Mutti ( of including Protestants, who gave rise to the non-Catholic cemetery in Rome ) so it is likely to see a swarm of British exiles settle in Emilia over time ( similar to the Lorraine people who followed Francis I to Austria Otl ), which could become a serious competitor to the English factory in Livorno / Leghorn , given the rich trade that could flow through an Emilian duchy, given that it is located right in the center between Habsburg Milan, Venice, Savoy, Tuscany and the Papacy, given that its creation will lead to the removal of numerous customs barriers in the area compared to Otl

Among the little-known Italian fiefdoms of the Empire ( because they were very small in size ) there are various places including the duchies of Massa, Sabbioneta, Bozzolo, the states of Pallavicino, Landi, the Principality of Soragna and the County of San Secondo, the Duchy of Mirandola ( all mainly located between Modena and Parma ) the marquisate of Zibello and the small Po Valley principalities including Correggio ect ( 1 ), the majority of them are confined between Habsburg Milan and the church state and above all the territories that Giacomo Francesco Edoardo Stuart should inherit, so I wonder, will he find an agreement with Vienna to divide them up, in exchange for their recognition as legitimate ruler ?


1 ) the rest of the many fiefdoms not absorbed by the regional powers were located between the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, Genoa and Emilia, and belonged in some way to the various branches of the Malaspina family

 

[Vladyslav]

I remember how me and @Vladyslav accidentaly created a situation in his "independent Ukraine since 17th century" TL when there is an ORTHODOX claimant dynastically senior to Hanoverians in succession line (a Romanov prince heading a cadet branch ruling Ukraine marries Mlle de Conde, a granddaughter of Edward of Palatinate).
We had to introduce butterflies killing off OTL James II in 1670ies, because we did not know what to do with a situation "non-Catholic but non-Protestant person in British succession line" if things in Britain go as OTL.

As I remember, we also had Ukrainian-British union situation in that TL

 

[Valena]

As I remember, we also had Ukrainian-British union situation in that TL

I'm talking about this. We decided to butterfly the OTL succession crisis away to avoid King Alexander I Romanov (by technicality).

 

[Charles III Stuart]

Neither would Prince William of Denmark. He would be just as much of an usurper as his Hanoverian cousins was iotl unless his uncle’s line died out. He is also getting the throne because of religious bigotry.

But at least he was actually a descendant of James VII & II, as opposed to someone whose line branched off from the British monarchy several generations earlier, and Prince William had been born and raised in Britain, had one fully British grandparent (Anne Hyde). George of Hanover didn't speak English fluently, knew almost nothing of British culture, and cared more about Hanover than he did about Britain.

 

[Jürgen]

I think they might want him breeding sooner rather than later, so maybe an older bride might be better? Sophie Luise of Mecklenburg or Marie Luise of Hesse-Kassel might work? The Danes have long been close to Mecklenburg as well and they got really close to the Hesses in the 18th century as well, although in the early 18th century, they might have been too close to Sweden for George’s taste. So Sophie might be the best choice

If you look for a slightly elder wife what about Princess Dorothea of Schleswig-Holstein-Sönderburg-Beck, she’s a very minor princess bringing only a small dowry, but she also doesn’t bring any trouble with her.

 

[Nuraghe]

Among the little-known Italian fiefdoms of the Empire ( because they were very small in size ) there are various places including the duchies of Massa, Sabbioneta, Bozzolo, the states of Pallavicino, Landi, the Principality of Soragna and the County of San Secondo, the Duchy of Mirandola ( all mainly located between Modena and Parma ) the marquisate of Zibello and the small Po Valley principalities including Correggio ect ( 1 ), the majority of them are confined between Habsburg Milan and the church state and above all the territories that Giacomo Francesco Edoardo Stuart should inherit, so I wonder, will he find an agreement with Vienna to divide them up, in exchange for their recognition as legitimate ruler ?


1 ) the rest of the many fiefdoms not absorbed by the regional powers were located between the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, Genoa and Emilia, and belonged in some way to the various branches of the Malaspina family

To conclude this discussion, I would also like to address another change, this time perhaps it can be positive, regarding Ireland since the existence of a state that sees the Stuarts as their rulers means that the Pope could delegate control to them of the appointments of the British Catholic hierarchy, removing it from the Bourbon "yoke" ( or perhaps it is more correct to use the term guardianship ) France would certainly still have significant interference, but the existence of this Emilia Stuart ( quite independent of French support, recognized by Vienna and above all Rome, as well as being geographically close to it, can help in making the Irish seem less threatening from the point of view of the London government as Otl was instead as it was considered a strongly pro-French fifth column ), this could lead to an important Irish diaspora on site, looking for important career opportunities, which would be added to the Jacobite one, which could influence the development of the Roman curia in the following decades in interesting ways ( as a more continuous and numerous British presence within it than in Otl ) as well as local traditions ( I'm trying to imagine a St. Patrick's Day with some Emilian traditions, the result is strangely hilarious )

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I'm trying to imagine a St. Patrick's Day with some Emilian traditions, the result is strangely hilarious )

the Jacobite diaspora in Lorraine at this point was so large that both Nancy and Luneville had celebrations on both St. Patrick's Day and Saint Andrew's Day when Stanislas Leszczynski arrived

 

[Nuraghe]

the Jacobite diaspora in Lorraine at this point was so large that both Nancy and Luneville had celebrations on both St. Patrick's Day and Saint Andrew's Day when Stanislas Leszczynski arrived

considering that in Italy Saint Patrick would find himself wedged between Carnival and the arrival of Easter, without forgetting the other native holidays, which could end up coinciding with the feast of the Saint, culminating in a something truly absurd and hilarious to see could come out of it

 

[Charles III Stuart]

If you look for a slightly elder wife what about Princess Dorothea of Schleswig-Holstein-Sönderburg-Beck, she’s a very minor princess bringing only a small dowry, but she also doesn’t bring any trouble with her.

What if he does what his grandfather James did and marries a (non-royal) Englishwoman instead of a foreign princess?

 

[Jürgen]

What if he does what his grandfather James did and marries a (non-royal) Englishwoman instead of a foreign princess?

He wouldn’t.

 

[Charles III Stuart]

He wouldn’t.

Why are you sure of this?

 

[Cate13]

Why are you sure of this?

Because for generations the kings of England and their heirs married foreign royals. And when they didn’t it was because they were impulsive and either the marriage was basically responsible for the fall of the House of York (Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodvile), or they were impulsive and possibility suffering from a mental condition (Henry VIII and four of his six wives), or not actually expected to be King (the afore mentioned James II). Notice that is 3 out of the last 12 and all have been the result of bad decisions made by the individual man.

As the heir, he won’t get to pick his bride: she will be foreign royalty.

Also, nobody at this time cared about “English” blood. English culture and language could be a problem but not that much since a monarch didn’t spend all that much time actually interacting with the average person.

 

[Jürgen]

Why are you sure of this?

Because his mother and father will decide who he marries, he’s an only child in ill health, he will be married as fast as they can get away with and they will find a fitting bride. So he will likely marry around age 17-18.

 

[Charles III Stuart]

Because for generations the kings of England and their heirs married foreign royals. And when they didn’t it was because they were impulsive and either the marriage was basically responsible for the fall of the House of York (Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodvile), or they were impulsive and possibility suffering from a mental condition (Henry VIII and four of his six wives), or not actually expected to be King (the afore mentioned James II). Notice that is 3 out of the last 12 and all have been the result of bad decisions made by the individual man.

And then you also have Mary, Queen of Scots marrying Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley, George VI (whose brother was almost certainly infertile) marrying Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, Charles III marrying Lady Diana Spencer, and the future William V marrying Kate Middleton.

As the heir, he won’t get to pick his bride: she will be foreign royalty.

Can't he put his foot down and say "I won't marry this foreign princess, I'd much rather marry an English lady"?

Also, nobody at this time cared about “English” blood. English culture and language could be a problem but not that much since a monarch didn’t spend all that much time actually interacting with the average person.

When did people begin to care about ethnic bloodlines, because it became a big thing in the 19th century?

Because his mother and father will decide who he marries, he’s an only child in ill health, he will be married as fast as they can get away with and they will find a fitting bride. So he will likely marry around age 17-18.

Which foreign royals are good options? Denmark is out, their royals are too closely related to him, same with other British royals, Anne hated the Hanoverians, and all Catholics are out.