WI Napoléon II: Bourbon Hostage?

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Kellan Sullivan

this is a rather random idea that I had in the shower.

What would've happened if the young Napoléon II had wound up being the hostage of Louis XVIII instead of his grandfather. I'm not exactly sure how this would happen, but presumably, he and his mother being separated/intercepted en route to Rambouillet would probably be a start.

Now, there's those that would say that, if he's in the Bourbon hands, he's a goner. However, that would actually be his security. Louis XVIII was the sort canny enough to know that the minute Napoléon/François gets so much as an unseasonal cough, the jig would be up for the Bourbons. Of course, there would be the Blancs thirsting for their impossible revenge who'll want him done away with (particularly after Berri's murder, as a sort of tit-for-tat), but I suspect the king and the moderates could give him some protection. After all, even Metternich never went so far as to execute the child.

We're not saying this plan would be ultimately successful, but it could also serve as a guarantee for several Bonapartists to remain loyal to the crown- if not the Bourbons specifically- rather than drifting into varying other circles. Plus, given Louis XVIII's OTL distrust/dislike of the Orléans branch, I could see him using TTL Napoléon le Petit as a useful threat- not necessarily calling him "your Majesty" or "emperor", but as the grandson/son of an emperor, Napoléon II, would take precedence over the Orléans branch (who're only Serene Highness)- against them.

At first, I imagine he'd stay with Maman Quiou- the last of his imperial household was only dismissed in 1820 OTL- until age 7 (1818), with maybe a few people changing, but ultimately, not many. As to who gets custody, there are a few options. The first is Louis XVIII himself. With the boy taught to think of the king as his grandfather or kindly uncle. Another alternative- I doubt Charles X would be considered- would be Madame Royal. Hear me out on this one, her lack of children was extraordinarily painful for her OTL. But, per the Prince de Joinville's recollections, she did love children. I've posted pictures in my TL that shows just how similar in appearance Henri, Comte de Chambord and the duc de Reichstadt were OTL. Her aunt, Maria Carolina, the Queen of Naples, OTL was one of the persons most puzzled by Marie Louise's indifference to her son OTL. Plus, Napoléon would've been born around the same time as Madame Royal's only documented pregnancy in 1811 1813. Him bearing more than a passing resemblance to his Bourbon-Habsburg ancestry (blond hair, blue eyes, Habsburg lip) instead of looking like a Corsican bandit, perhaps wouldn't be the craziest case of transference for her to convince herself he resembles her murdered brother*.

*not saying she's crazy or anything, but it's been over twenty years since she would've seen her brother. Allowances can be made for "discrepancies".

@The_Most_Happy @Electric Monk @isabella @Nuraghe @Emperor Constantine @Dragonboy @eliamartin65 @Fehérvári
 
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The_Most_Happy

The_Most_Happy

Ohhhh the idea of Marie Thérèse taking Napoléon II (who I assume would go by François) under her wing and being able to love him and mother him and heal both of their trauma together 😭😭😭 I need this, please. I need a dramatic scene where he informs someone that Marie Thérèse is his only mother and he'd die before even offending her.
 

Dragonboy

The_Most_Happy said:
Ohhhh the idea of Marie Thérèse taking Napoléon II (who I assume would go by François) under her wing and being able to love him and mother him and heal both of their trauma together 😭😭😭 I need this, please. I need a dramatic scene where he informs someone that Marie Thérèse is his only mother and he'd die before even offending her.
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Same here! Plus he's close to the french throne...
 
DrakeRlugia

DrakeRlugia

I don't think the idea is too farfetched. For one, it might be a boon to Louis XVIII to have Napoleon's son in his clutches and turn him into a true out and out royalist and a pillar of the Bourbon monarchy. Certainly the Ultra-Royalists hated the Bonapartists, but I can't see them doing much but complain about this young child. Certainly him being in Austria meant that Austria could use him as a bargaining chip against France (and iirc, they did). At least him being in France means no one has any leverage over the situation.

I think the major issue would be security concerns: obviously the Bonapartist party during the French Restoration was fairly neutered because Reichstadt was all the way in Austria. After his eventual death, there were other claimants (Napoleon III's escapades in the 1830s come to mind) but having the actual Bonapartist heir within France could make issues more... difficult. Certainly Bonapartism was intermingled to some extent with the Carbonari (which wasn't just a movement in Italy; it had roots in France, too). The Carbonari in France sort of transcended political movements, as Republicans, Bonapartists, and those opposed to the Restoration were involved in it. IIRC, something like ~20,000 of these people were in Paris c. 1820, and there were members in 25 departments. They were very active in 1820-23, though the capture of it's higher ranking members in 1822 meant the Bourbon monarchy was able to clamp down it. Still, I wonder what the Bonapartists might think of Napoleon's son and heir being in France, and I could imagine plots to "free" him, even if they aren't successful. The Four Sergeants of La Rochelle, for instance, were executed for a supposed plot to restore Napoleon II.

I don't see any reason why Marie-Therese might not serve as his surrogate mother. Certainly she's the best equipped... Louis XVIII in 1815 was already an obese old man, Charles X was a grandfather. The Duc d'Angouleme and Marie-Therese at the very least were a fairly normal married couple compared to Berri's escapades. She did a fairly decent job in her raising of the Count of Chambord and his sister, though perhaps educationally it was not the best (iirc, Chambord had private tutors, men such as the Duc de Damas who would've likely been chosen as governor to an ancien regime prince). In Napoleon's II situation, this is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if they want to indoctrinate him, so to speak.

Him living could have some interesting issues, for sure. I presume his mother likely still receives Parma, but only for life.
 
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Kellan Sullivan

My apologies for mistating the date of Madame Royal's miscarriage* as 1811 in the OP. The child was due in June 1813, per both Doctor Lefebvre and Princess Charlotte in a letter to Margaret Elphinstone.

*There seems to be some confusion in the sources as to whether Madame Royal suffered a miscarriage or the child was simply stillborn.
 

Kellan Sullivan

Although what WOULD be interesting (and supremely ironic) is if Madame Royal and Angoulêmee experience that phenomenon sometimes visited on parents who adopt children because they have none. Namely that Madame Royal's symptoms of 1815* are due to pregnancy rather than early-onset menopause.

I wonder how a successful pregnancy for L'Orpheline du Temple would change. On one hand, there'd be the usual feeling of displacement when a new sibling is born. On the other, Madame Royal, Angoulême, even some of the ultramontane Catholics at the Restauration court could see this as not only heaven's reward for her sufferings, but also as a reward for her taking in the "orphan" of her enemy.

*These symptoms were the cause of marriage negotiations by Louis XVIII with Saxony being put on hold (the duc de Berri was to marry composer-princess Amalie of Saxony)
 
The_Most_Happy

The_Most_Happy

Kellan Sullivan said:
Although what WOULD be interesting (and supremely ironic) is if Madame Royal and Angoulêmee experience that phenomenon sometimes visited on parents who adopt children because they have none. Namely that Madame Royal's symptoms of 1815* are due to pregnancy rather than early-onset menopause.

I wonder how a successful pregnancy for L'Orpheline du Temple would change. On one hand, there'd be the usual feeling of displacement when a new sibling is born. On the other, Madame Royal, Angoulême, even some of the ultramontane Catholics at the Restauration court could see this as not only heaven's reward for her sufferings, but also as a reward for her taking in the "orphan" of her enemy.
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Oooooh! This! I would love to see this. I think you're absolutely right that for Madame Royale and Angoulême and other ultramontes, Madame Royale having a child after all that time - especially if it's a boy* - could very easily be seen as a gift from God for saving and rehabiliting the son of their enemy. And if this is her belief, in addition to her natural affection for him, no way is Marie Thérèse allowing François to be taken from their family or made to feel less than. I'm sure she'll reinforce that 'savior' (both the Bourbons saving him and him 'saving' the Bourbons) mentality as well, and do her best to ensure François is as devoted to the baby as possible.

A Bourbon king with the Bonaparte heir as his devoted and adoring foster brother is a hell of an image.

*Not to get greedy but Madame would only be 37 in 1815, leaving her a few years for a second child - and a lot less stress and pressure to have a child, making that option a lot more likely. Also, the probability for twins (and her and husband's mutual great-aunts were twins) increases significantly with maternal age, just saying ;) sorry, resident midwife out

Kellan Sullivan said:
*These symptoms were the cause of marriage negotiations by Louis XVIII with Saxony being put on hold (the duc de Berri was to marry composer-princess Amalie of Saxony)
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That marriage would've been very interesting to see - wonder where Maria Carolina would've ended up?
 

Polish Eagle

On the flip side, Napoleon II's OTL contempt for his mother should make his 'adoption' rather easy on him. Would the Bourbons let him develop a military career as he tried IOTL? Napoleon II in Algeria, perhaps?

Interestingly, Madam Royale was one of the few Bourbons Napoleon I seemed to have an iota of respect for--he might actually be happier with his son in her hands than Austrian ones, if anyone sees fit to inform him over on St. Helena.
 
DrakeRlugia

DrakeRlugia

Is the 1813 pregnancy the only pregnancy that we're aware of for Madame Royale? I've certainly heard about it as well, and of course of her symptoms in 1815 that some hoped were pregnancy, but instead menopause. I think if she's lucky to conceive a child in 1815, I think that will likely be it for her.

I remember reading something that suggested at one point Angoulême was impotent. I'm not sure if it was true: Certainly, he didn't cut much of a figure compared to his younger brother: Angoulême was certainly more handsome than Berri, but he wasn't as "outgoing" as his younger brother. It's definitely curious, since their only pregnancy happened nearly twenty years after their marriage. Given her incredibly stressful childhood, the horrors she endured, then the stress of living in exile, moving from place to place, practically being hunted down: it doesn't necessarily lend it's self to making her a fecund person. Stress can also affect fertility, and it's not common for those issues to cause early menopause. At 37, Madame Royale was fairly young to be going through the change of life. It's not as if Angoulême's life was much better, he endured some of the same stressors that Madame Royale did.
 

Kellan Sullivan

DrakeRlugia said:
. It's definitely curious, since their only pregnancy happened nearly twenty years after their marriage. Given her incredibly stressful childhood, the horrors she endured, then the stress of living in exile, moving from place to place, practically being hunted down: it doesn't necessarily lend it's self to making her a fecund person. Stress can also affect fertility, and it's not common for those issues to cause early menopause.
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as another site pointed out way back in 2013 or so, we have no proof that there weren't other pregnancies/early stage miscarriages*. The only reason we know about the 1813 one is because the persons reporting on it (Doctor Lefebvre and Princess Charlotte) were outside the "bubble" of an insular court in exile. It's the same way most biographies don't mention Mary, Queen of Scots miscarried/stillborn twins of 1567, Mary of Modena's 1689 miscarriage, or Clementina Sobieska's 1722/1723/1728 miscarriages.

*perhaps brought on by the same stressors

DrakeRlugia said:
It's not as if Angoulême's life was much better, he endured some of the same stressors that Madame Royale did.
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he also suffered from PTSD (or as it was then called, neurasthenia), which can also affect "performance", hence the long held belief that the marriage wasn't consummated or that he was impotent.
 

Kellan Sullivan

680451-1492691347.jpg

^founds this painting of little Henri and Louise d'Artois at the Chateau de Bagatelle in Paris^

I assume the figures to the left are Angoulême and Madame Royal? Given Frankie's interesting in gardening as a child, I could see him being included in a TTL version of this picture
 

Dragonboy

Kellan Sullivan said:
680451-1492691347.jpg

^founds this painting of little Henri and Louise d'Artois at the Chateau de Bagatelle in Paris^

I assume the figures to the left are Angoulême and Madame Royal? Given Frankie's interesting in gardening as a child, I could see him being included in a TTL version of this picture
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Absolutely! He could be there planting some flowers!
 

Polish Eagle

Kellan Sullivan said:
^founds this painting of little Henri and Louise d'Artois at the Chateau de Bagatelle in Paris^

I assume the figures to the left are Angoulême and Madame Royal? Given Frankie's interesting in gardening as a child, I could see him being included in a TTL version of this picture
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Madame Royal: "How sweet! He's such a good hand with a hoe!"

Messenger comes up: "Your majesty, the weekly report on the usurper: he has taken up gardening on St. Helena."

[everyone goes ashen-faced at this bad omen]
 

Kellan Sullivan

Polish Eagle said:
Madame Royal: "How sweet! He's such a good hand with a hoe!"
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Given how her late brother also loved gardening, bringing their mother flowers from his garden everyday... Even when they were separated in the Temple, he would attempt to leave flowers outside her cell door if he was allowed out. He apparently even did this after Antoinette had been executed, nobody seeing fit to tell him she was dead... I could see Madame Royal getting a lump in her throat and an odd watery substance in her eyes.

Also, Napoléon was one of those men who didn't have the patience for gardening. So him having taken up gardening would be an odd choice indeed.
 
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