WI: Lancaster, Lancaster, Lancaster...

[Euphemios]

Henry of Monmouth, V (1386–1422, r. 1413–22) married (1420–2) Catherine of Valois (1401-37), had issue:
1. Henry the Mad, VI (1420–, r. 1422–)
2. Edward of Windsor (1420–)
3. William of Kent (1421–)
4. Blanche of England (1422–)

Assuming that all of them live to adulthood, how is the political landscape ultimately changed by Henry VI having multiple siblings and nephews?
Is the war in France still lost with the butterflies? Assuming a loss and a subsequent butterfly massacre, does York continue his rebellion without the prospect of becoming king?
Who do the bunch marry?

 

[Avrorrange]

Instead of a dispute with the House of York, there could be an intra-Lancastrian power struggle instead.Edward of Windsor is probably gonna be the regent in this scenario, but if Marguerite of Anjou still becomes queen and regards her brother-in-law with the same kind of suspicion as York, then it is possible for the same kind of dispute between herself and York to take shape.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Henry of Monmouth, V (1386–1422, r. 1413–22) married (1420–2) Catherine of Valois (1401-37), had issue:
1. Henry the Mad, VI (1420–, r. 1422–)
2. Edward of Windsor (1420–)
3. William of Kent (1421–)
4. Blanche of England (1422–)

Assuming that all of them live to adulthood, how is the political landscape ultimately changed by Henry VI having multiple siblings and nephews?
Is the war in France still lost with the butterflies? Assuming a loss and a subsequent butterfly massacre, does York continue his rebellion without the prospect of becoming king?
Who do the bunch marry?

Since Henry wasn't exactly in frequent contact with Catherine this could perhaps suggest rumors of cuckoldry...

 

[Euphemios]

Edward of Windsor is probably gonna be the regent in this scenario, but if Marguerite of Anjou still becomes queen and regards her brother-in-law with the same kind of suspicion as York, then it is possible for the same kind of dispute between herself and York to take shape.

Since it is somewhat unlikely for the same allies to emerge for both sides, what does the line-up look like? I assume Beaufort, Suffolk and such are sidelined entirely with more dynasts?

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

Since Henry wasn't exactly in frequent contact with Catherine this could perhaps suggest rumors of cuckoldry...

I mean, maybe, but we're talking about Henry V at the absolute height of his career (Henry, the heir to France; Henry, king of an England that gets its own 'nation' at the Council of Constance ahead of the Danes and the Poles). I think so long as he acknowledges them and they look like dad, nobody's going to bat an eye.

After all, Emperor Sigismund's daughter (who was born about a decade before this) is of even shakier paternity and Sigismund was a pretty divisive figure at the best of times, and IIRC nobody denied his paternity of Elizabeth. Same deal with Richard, earl of Cambridge; I don't think anybody brought that up at the time specifically, either.

If I'm not wrong (and I could be) the accusations of illegitimacy owe to a slightly later period where rival claimants desperately need to undermine their opponents, no matter how ridiculous it sounds. What rivals does Henry V have in England that would benefit from such an accusation? Sure, Henry's not universally popular, but he reigns in a way that the vast majority of English nobles like (by trying to foster broad consensus), so I don't think you'll see anybody besmirching the legitimacy of his children, no matter how credible the rumours.

 

[Deleted member 147978]

1. Henry the Mad, VI (1420–, r. 1422–)
2. Edward of Windsor (1420–)
3. William of Kent (1421–)
4. Blanche of England (1422–)

Assuming that Henry VI was indeed mad, he'll likely be replaced by his twin brother Edward who'll become ATL Edward IV ITTL.

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

4. Blanche of England (1422–)

Maybe Mary would be a more likely name? That's Henry V's mother's name, and typically noblemen of this period name their eldest daughter after their mother (it's not a hard-and-fast rule, but you see it happen more often than not).

Unless, of course, Blanche is a posthumous child, in which case we have to assume Catherine is naming her, so maybe Isabelle/Elizabeth or even Catherine are possible choices. Blanche isn't impossible, but I think that name would likely be reserved for a younger daughter that never materializes here.

 

[Euphemios]

That's Henry V's mother's name, and typically noblemen of this period name their eldest daughter after their mother.

Henry's grandmother herself was one Blanche, thus, the name is not entirely unlikely.

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

Henry's grandmother herself was one Blanche, thus, the name is not entirely unlikely.

Hence why I said "not impossible." But usually the son names the eldest daughter after his own mother, not his grandmother:

1) Edward III named his eldest daughter Isabella, after his mother
2) Lionel, duke of Clarence named his only child Philippa, after his mother
3) John of Gaunt also named his eldest daughter Philippa (again, after his mother)
4) Henry IV named his eldest daughter Blanche, after his mother (the grandmother's name, Philippa, was saved for the younger daughter)
5) Richard, earl of Cambridge, named his only daughter Isabel, after his mother
6) Richard, duke of York named his eldest daughter Anne after his mother

7) John of Gorlitz, Emperor Sigismund's brother, named his only daughter Elizabeth, after his mother
8) Emperor Sigismund himself later also used the name Elizabeth for his own daughter; in this case, Elizabeth was also their grandmother's name, so it was really a no-brainer

9) Charles VI of France's eldest surviving daughter was named Isabella, after his wife, but before that he had a daughter (Joan) who was named after his mother; this Joan did not survive childhood, but was still alive when Isabella was born, so it couldn't be used again. Joan was then duly reused for the next surviving daughter.

There are exceptions, ofc. (Charles VII of France named his eldest daughter Radegonde of all things, and Isabella didn't even make it into the top 5), but if I had to bet what name Henry V would name his only daughter, I'd bet on Mary 9 times out of 10...

 

[Rose’s War]

This looks really interesting!

How are you going to characterise this Edward? It would be interesting for one of the sons marry one of the York daughters and try to gain the throne. Perhaps Edward would be content as being the power behind his brother's throne, but maybe William of Kent would ally with York to try to take the throne for himself? Or Edward could? I'd guess at least one of them would be power-hungry, especially as their eldest brother's position as King would be vulnerable!

Anne of York is 19 years younger though so that may be an issue... Maybe you could ally them through one of Isabel of Cambridge's Bourchier children? Or have Richard, Duke of York and Cecily Neville have children earlier?

 

[Avrorrange]

Since Henry wasn't exactly in frequent contact with Catherine this could perhaps suggest rumors of cuckoldry...

In this timeline he could bring her on the campaigns.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

In this timeline he could bring her on the campaigns.

That is not a good idea, what if both of them get killed, who's going to rule then

 

[ordinarylittleme]

This looks really interesting!

How are you going to characterise this Edward? It would be interesting for one of the sons marry one of the York daughters and try to gain the throne. Perhaps Edward would be content as being the power behind his brother's throne, but maybe William of Kent would ally with York to try to take the throne for himself? Or Edward could? I'd guess at least one of them would be power-hungry, especially as their eldest brother's position as King would be vulnerable!

Anne of York is 19 years younger though so that may be an issue... Maybe you could ally them through one of Isabel of Cambridge's Bourchier children? Or have Richard, Duke of York and Cecily Neville have children earlier?

Interesting...out of curiosity why on earth will the sons wed a York daughter though...

 

[Avrorrange]

That is not a good idea, what if both of them get killed, who's going to rule then

She was never gonna rule. Henry always left one of his brothers in charge when he’s gone. There was no plan for her to rule.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

She was never gonna rule. Henry always left one of his brothers in charge when he’s gone. There was no plan for her to rule.

Yes, but if she's dead, there's no queen to produce heirs...

 

[Avrorrange]

Yes, but if she's dead, there's no queen to produce heirs...

He gets another wife. Besides that, this is supposed to be the sister of the 'Dauphine/King of France'. The French won't kill her if they get her.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

He gets another wife. Besides that, this is supposed to be the sister of the 'Dauphine/King of France'. The French won't kill her if they get her.

OK, true.

 

[Tyler96]

Even before Henry goes catatonic, the domestic politics of the realm are changed somewhat by the existence of his younger brothers- Humphrey might act differently in a scenario where he isn't the heir, for instance.

Re: the war in France. England was facing an uphill battle in terms of manpower and resources, but it's possible one of the younger brothers talks his way into command in the 1440s and proves more competent than the Beauforts. Though this potentially opens up a fracture with the king, if the younger brother considers Henry not sufficiently committed to the war effort (and is unhappy with the Anjou marriage, handover of Maine etc). Said younger brother could then become something of a York-analogue, campaigning for reform and the reining in of courtly excess.

Does Isabella still hook up with Tudor in this scenario, or would the younger kids butterfly that?

Since it is somewhat unlikely for the same allies to emerge for both sides, what does the line-up look like? I assume Beaufort, Suffolk and such are sidelined entirely with more dynasts?

Thing is, they'll have been ensconced around the king for ~20 years by the time the younger brothers are able to take up a political role- and might not be easily dislodged.

 

[Rose’s War]

Interesting...out of curiosity why on earth will the sons wed a York daughter though...

… Because York, excluding royal Dukes, is the most senior noble in the realm. If the sons aren’t all going to marry abroad, or end up taking a second wife (which, due to any age difference, would be better) a York daughter would be likely to be considered.

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

England was facing an uphill battle in terms of manpower and resources, but it's possible one of the younger brothers talks his way into command in the 1440s and proves more competent than the Beauforts.

The main uphill battle here is money. OTL England was basically broke and didn't have enough money to pay the mercenaries holding Henry V's conquests. Which means something in France has to give; England's going to start losing some of their continental gains at some point.

Yes, the policies enacted by Henry VI's court are partly due to 'courtly excess' and Henry VI's mental illness. But I think they're also partly a genuine reaction to the reality that continued war with France was only partially realistic at this time.

Not to get too off-topic, because I don't think the war with France was entirely unwinnable. But it requires a lot of things going right; it requires weak/mentally-ill French kings; it requires the French political sphere to be so fractional that the English king is seen as something of a compromise candidate, and it requires England to have a full treasury with an active king (so not too young but also not too old). In short, if you want the war with France to go well for the English, Henry V needs to live longer (the dude had been planning for a French campaign for basically his entire life).

Sure, someone more competent than the Beauforts might succeed in winning England peanuts, but England's prospects at this stage probably aren't going to look very good no matter who's in charge.