WI John Hunyadi doesnt die after the siege of Belgrad?

[Tibi088]

OTL John Hunyadi has died in a plague after the victory at the siege of Belgrad. His elder son, László has been beheaded because of the murder of Ulrich of Celje. His younger son, Matthias was taken as a prisoner to Bohemia and in 1458 elected as the king of Hungary while only 16 years old.

So if John Hunyadi lives Ulrich wont be murdered and his eldest son wont be beheaded. His already immense influence and prestige will grow even further. He was aroung 50 in 1456 at his OTL death.

If the king of Hungary, Ladislaus the Posthumus dies on schedule in 1458 who would be king?
Hunyadi would be 1 of the lead contenders but he is not Matthias. Matthias was elected partly because his youth the magnates thought they could control him. There is no chance whatsoever that anyone would think this of Hunyadi. Also with Ulrich of Celje alive one of the most influential enemies of the Hunyadi family remains on the stage. I think whoever was elected - Hunyadi or the other Candidate - it has a high chance to spark a civil war. Who do you think the opposing candidate would be?

If either with a short civil war or without it Hunyadi gets the throne and his elder son was not executed László will be his heir. What role would Matthias play? Also who would László marry? He was betrohed to the daughter of a hungarian magnate but if Hunyadi becomes king im not sure if that will stand.

As to John Hunyadi as king i think he would be fighting the ottomans more activly than Matthias did OTL, but I dont think that he could achive anything drastic on that front.

 

[krieger]

OTL John Hunyadi has died in a plague after the victory at the siege of Belgrad. His elder son, László has been beheaded because of the murder of Ulrich of Celje. His younger son, Matthias was taken as a prisoner to Bohemia and in 1458 elected as the king of Hungary while only 16 years old.

So if John Hunyadi lives Ulrich wont be murdered and his eldest son wont be beheaded. His already immense influence and prestige will grow even further. He was aroung 50 in 1456 at his OTL death.

If the king of Hungary, Ladislaus the Posthumus dies on schedule in 1458 who would be king?
Hunyadi would be 1 of the lead contenders but he is not Matthias. Matthias was elected partly because his youth the magnates thought they could control him. There is no chance whatsoever that anyone would think this of Hunyadi. Also with Ulrich of Celje alive one of the most influential enemies of the Hunyadi family remains on the stage. I think whoever was elected - Hunyadi or the other Candidate - it has a high chance to spark a civil war. Who do you think the opposing candidate would be?

If either with a short civil war or without it Hunyadi gets the throne and his elder son was not executed László will be his heir. What role would Matthias play? Also who would László marry? He was betrohed to the daughter of a hungarian magnate but if Hunyadi becomes king im not sure if that will stand.

As to John Hunyadi as king i think he would be fighting the ottomans more activly than Matthias did OTL, but I dont think that he could achive anything drastic on that front.

If Hunyadi lives in the year of Posthumuous death that he still could prop up his son (be it Laszlo or Matyas) candidature in hope of getting regency over them and basically becoming King in everything, but not in name. On the other hand, if Ulrich of Celje is still alive (and he was among most powerful Hungarian magnates of his time) he'd definitely support Celje blood on a throne. So he could support William II Wettin - less likely, he was a ruler of tiny duchy, but his advantage over the other candidate with wife of Celje descent is that he is not conflicted with anyone else and free to fight for Hungarian crown, but he has only daughters with his Celje wife to succeed him or Casimir IV Jagiellon - more likely, he was a ruler of a two large states and a brother to Vladislaus III of Varna, but he was conflicted with TO (however this conflict didn't went too well for TO, they already lost their capital), he can provide support against Turks, he has two sons already. So if Ulrich supports Casimir his side is more likely to win in my opinion (Casimir would certainly try to encourage Lithuanians to engage in Prussia or he can make peace with TO earlier), but if Ulrich supports William then Hunyadys would win. @Jan Olbracht

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Poland was exhausted by war with TO. And Lithianians... it was Casimir's success, that they remained at least neutral-they wished TO to win, just like Mazovians (that was also bit of luck for Casimir that Mazovian dukes died during early stages of war, leaving underage sons). So there is little chance for active Polish involvement.

 

[Monter]

Poland was exhausted by war with TO and Lithianians... it was Casimir's success, that they remained at least neutral-they wished TO to win, just like Mazovians (that was also bit of luck for Casimir that Mazovian dukes died during early stages of war, leaving underage sons). So there is little chance for active Polish involvement.

But what if the Polish candidate is a compromisse (he doean't to march an army to Hungary)?

 

[Tibi088]

Im pretty sure that noone will take the hungarian throne peacefully in direct opposition of Hunyadi. And the hungarian nobility was usually not that supportive of non hungarian candidates. Hunyadi has also immensly boosted his prestige with Belgrade. And he was without a question the strongest, most influential and most popular of the hungarian magnates by far even before Belgrade. He will also likely have the support of the pope - OTL the pope supported Matthias's election because he hoped he will continue his father ottoman wars.

OTOH hand there is a strong anti Hunyadi party of the magnates led by Ulrich of Celje. But please note that during Hunyadi's life even with the king on their side they couldnt move against him. I think that inside of Hungary Hunyadi's side is clearly stronger.

So IMO the throne goes either to Hunyadi, a compromise candidate or a big civil war follows.

 

[krieger]

Poland was exhausted by war with TO. And Lithianians... it was Casimir's success, that they remained at least neutral-they wished TO to win, just like Mazovians (that was also bit of luck for Casimir that Mazovian dukes died during early stages of war, leaving underage sons). So there is little chance for active Polish involvement.

But if Ulrich of Celje carried a war in a name of Casimir, he wouldn't resist.

 

[Fehérvári]

Well, what about a surviving Elisabeth of Celje/ Cillei Erzsébet, the daughter of Ulrich? She was bethrothed to Matthias OTL before her sudden death. Like this, Matthias could be an ideal compromise candidate for both John and Ulrich, imo.

 

[krieger]

Well, what about a surviving Elisabeth of Celje/ Cillei Erzsébet, the daughter of Ulrich? She was bethrothed to Matthias OTL before her sudden death. Like this, Matthias could be an ideal compromise candidate for both John and Ulrich, imo.

Why not his elder brother, Laszlo?

 

[Fehérvári]

Why not his elder brother, Laszlo?

László was already bethrothed to Anna Garai, the daughter of the third most powerful magnate(László Garai).

 

[krieger]

László was already bethrothed to Anna Garai, the daughter of the third most powerful magnate(László Garai).

OK. Than the Matthias could succeed without any troubles. Would the regency over him be still established as IOTL? And how would Laszlo handle the sudden rise of his brother? Wouldn't he be angry that he is not the one to be crowned (John Hunyadi was rumoured to be bastard of Sigismund of Luxembourgs) being elder than Matthias?

 

[Fehérvári]

OK. Than the Matthias could succeed without any troubles. Would the regency over him be still established as IOTL? And how would Laszlo handle the sudden rise of his brother? Wouldn't he be angry that he is not the one to be crowned (John Hunyadi was rumoured to be bastard of Sigismund of Luxembourgs) being elder than Matthias?

John Hunyadi would still retain most of the power, so an official regency might not be declared.

As for László, I have a great idea: He could be put on the Czech throne! The Pope and the Czech Catholics would probably support him over Poděbrad, while the Hussites could also compromise if they receive garantuees. In their eyes, he would be better choice, than Frederick III atleast.

 

[krieger]

John Hunyadi would still retain most of the power, so an official regency might not be declared.

As for László, I have a great idea: He could be put on the Czech throne! The Pope and the Czech Catholics would probably support him over Poděbrad, while the Hussites could also compromise if they receive garantuees. In their eyes, he would be better choice, than Frederick III atleast.

He would be not supported over Jagiellon, I think. Hussites wanted to keep Germans away from power, and Jagiellon with ties to Poland was a better choice than Laszlo Hunyady. And Podebrady was among one of the most powerful magnates of his time.

 

[Fehérvári]

He would be not supported over Jagiellon, I think. Hussites wanted to keep Germans away from power, and Jagiellon with ties to Poland was a better choice than Laszlo Hunyady. And Podebrady was among one of the most powerful magnates of his time.

The Hunyadis weren't Germans though. Also Hungary was stronger than Poland, didn't have conflicting interests with Czechia(, unlike Poland (Silesia)), and was at a better geographic location to aid the Czechs against the Emperor.

 

[krieger]

The Hunyadis weren't Germans though. Also Hungary was stronger than Poland, didn't have conflicting interests with Czechia(, unlike Poland (Silesia)), and was at a better geographic location to aid the Czechs against the Emperor.

Yes, but they weren't also Slavic (close culturally to Czechs). Poland renounced it's rights to Silesia a hundred years ago, no one wanted to take it back at that stage. Emperor is not a problem here, Hohenzollerns are.

 

[Fehérvári]

Yes, but they weren't also Slavic (close culturally to Czechs). Poland renounced it's rights to Silesia a hundred years ago, no one wanted to take it back at that stage. Emperor is not a problem here, Hohenzollerns are.

I see. How about this: Podebrady still becomes Czech king, but since his daughter is not married off to Matthias TTL, Hunyadi immediately invades to put his elder son on the throne. The victor of Belgrade would certainly have the support of the Pope over the Jagiellons, and therefore the Czech Chatolics would also side with the Hunyadis. Podebrady is defeated, the Hussites are calmed by garantuees and the Czech throne is secured for László Hunyadi.

 

[krieger]

I see. How about this: Podebrady still becomes Czech king, but since his daughter is not married off to Matthias TTL, Hunyadi immediately invades to put his elder son on the throne. The victor of Belgrade would certainly have the support of the Pope over the Jagiellons, and therefore the Czech Chatolics would also side with the Hunyadis. Podebrady is defeated, the Hussites are calmed by garantuees and the Czech throne is secured for László Hunyadi.

If the defeat of Podebrady was that simple, Matthias would have taken Bohemia proper for himself OTL. ITTL Hunyady could invade, but he'd get the same area, which Matthias got - Moravia, Slovakia and Lusatia. And guarantees are impossible if Laszlo Hunyady wants support of Pope - Pius II declared them null IOTL and it was the reason of Podebrady deposition. Laszlo would lose Pope's support if he promises anything to Hussites until Pius II lives.

 

[Tibi088]

John Hunyadi would still retain most of the power, so an official regency might not be declared.

As for László, I have a great idea: He could be put on the Czech throne! The Pope and the Czech Catholics would probably support him over Poděbrad, while the Hussites could also compromise if they receive garantuees. In their eyes, he would be better choice, than Frederick III atleast.

I think John Hunyadi would be named the regent of his son - likely with special provisions that he cant move against Ulrich of Celje.

Knowing Matthias's personality and what he did with his regent OTL might this be a perfect set up to a son vs father fight?

I also have a hard time to imagine John Hunyadi fighting a war of conquest in Bohemia instead of fighting the turks. He has fought the turks his whole life. His titles - all along the southern border - also predestine him to concentrate there. Or maybe its just me having this image of him.

 

[kasumigenx]

Yes, but they weren't also Slavic (close culturally to Czechs). Poland renounced it's rights to Silesia a hundred years ago, no one wanted to take it back at that stage. Emperor is not a problem here, Hohenzollerns are.

Casimir III changed his mind about that many times and planned a war just before he died.
Even if that is the fact, some Silesian dukes still participated in Polish Politics like Vladislaus of Opole and some asked for the help of the Polish king like Elizabeth of Cieszyn, as long as the ruler of Poland is not ethnic Polish it will not be claimed back.

 

[Tirion]

I think John Hunyadi would be named the regent of his son - likely with special provisions that he cant move against Ulrich of Celje.

Knowing Matthias's personality and what he did with his regent OTL might this be a perfect set up to a son vs father fight?

I also have a hard time to imagine John Hunyadi fighting a war of conquest in Bohemia instead of fighting the turks. He has fought the turks his whole life. His titles - all along the southern border - also predestine him to concentrate there. Or maybe its just me having this image of him.

In which case, how about going on a counter-offensive after Belgrade and taking some land back from the Turks for his son?

 

[Tibi088]

In which case, how about going on a counter-offensive after Belgrade and taking some land back from the Turks for his son?

Not really for his son but a counter offensive could be in the cards. Though the plague that OTL killed Hunyadi could still happen which would make continuing the fight impossible. Without it some gains on the Balkans are likely. Serbia would switch sides as well.

But im not sure how bad the defeat was for the Ottomans. It was a serious blow but how serious im not capable of telling.