WI: Better French Performance in the beginning of WW1

Dunbar

I've got a couple ideas on how the French could do better at least at the beginning of the First World War:

1. The French strategy is focused on defending against a German thrust through Belgium.

While I think this is doable, there was a plan to defend against such a thing and the French gained an early draft of the Schlieffen plan in 1904, It would require that the French "Cult of the Offensive be discredited in some way. Also the French thought the early version of the Schlieffen plan was a ruse.

2. The French adopt modern uniforms earlier

Earlier adoption of more dull colors couldn't have hurt the French

3. Plan to use of reserve divisions in the same way the Germans used reserve divisions instead of planning to keep them behind the lines doing the clean up work. I think this would require some changes to the "Cult of the Offensive" as well.

4. The French offensives into Germany rout the defenders and are at the Rhine by Christmans, the British land on Germany's Northern Coast and are in Berlin by Boxing day and the war is over by New Years, Hooray. A man can dream can't he?


Anyway, if the French do adopt a plan of defending a German thrust through Belgium I see them being able to hold on to significantly more of North Eastern France than they did, thus greatly improving their position in later years. Also they wouldn't lose the men they did on their failed offensives into Germany. Meanwhile I see the Germans in a much worse position having lost more than they did in OTL as well as having gained less. Could this mean an earlier end to the War?
 

Riain

Banned
The French attacks on the pivot point of the German wheel into Belgium were decisevely defeated. The French were behind the Germans in several fields, perhaps the most important being indiect fire artillery which the Germans had in good numbers down to the divisional level.
 
Cook

Cook

Banned
Dunbar said:
2. The French adopt modern uniforms earlier
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Dunbar said:
Earlier adoption of more dull colors couldn't have hurt the French
Click to expand...

Lest anyone think this isn’t significant I’ll post a picture of the French 1914 infantry uniform. If the bright colours weren’t enough, they carried their cooking pot (polished to a high shine; any dullness resulting in a charge) on the top of their pack. The diary of Lieutenant Erwin Rommel records him being able to see the shine of these pots and shoot the French soldiers even when concealed in shoulder high bushes.

Later they toned down this ridiculous abortion by adopting a sky blue jacket and matching pants. It doesn’t seem to have occurred to them that since their men were fighting what was by that stage mostly fields of mud, that a more earthy colour would have been better.

French-1914.jpg
 
Cymraeg

Cymraeg

I think that the French war minister, Messimy, tried to change the uniform colours in 1912 or 13, but was prevented by a bunch of imbeciles in the military who clung to the old ways. I'm trying to remember the name of the idiot who said: "Le pantalon rouge c'est la France!" and who helped to kill quite a few French soldiers as a result. I mean, for heavens sake, if even we Brits saw the need for khaki before the war, why couldn't the French military see reason on this?
 

Dunbar

Cymraeg said:
I think that the French war minister, Messimy, tried to change the uniform colours in 1912 or 13, but was prevented by a bunch of imbeciles in the military who clung to the old ways. I'm trying to remember the name of the idiot who said: "Le pantalon rouge c'est la France!" and who helped to kill quite a few French soldiers as a result. I mean, for heavens sake, if even we Brits saw the need for khaki before the war, why couldn't the French military see reason on this?
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Yeah read that too. In that idiots defense it's a rather stylish uniform if only the other combatants had recognized the need for flair on the battlefield.
 

jaybird

I remember something about how the French cavalry thought it was chic to die while wearing white gloves.
 

Prince Charon

Cymraeg said:
I think that the French war minister, Messimy, tried to change the uniform colours in 1912 or 13, but was prevented by a bunch of imbeciles in the military who clung to the old ways. I'm trying to remember the name of the idiot who said: "Le pantalon rouge c'est la France!" and who helped to kill quite a few French soldiers as a result. I mean, for heavens sake, if even we Brits saw the need for khaki before the war, why couldn't the French military see reason on this?
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Some sources on Google ascribe it to Eugène Étienne, who had been French Minister of War from 12 November 1905 to 25 October 1906 and 21 January 1913 to 9 December 1913, but wikipedia has no article for him, and some think its a made up quote. Its does fit the attitude of the period, though.
 

Elfwine

Dunbar said:
3. Plan to use of reserve divisions in the same way the Germans used reserve divisions instead of planning to keep them behind the lines doing the clean up work. I think this would require some changes to the "Cult of the Offensive" as well.
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Problem. The French divisions aren't up to the task. The German reserve divisions are pretty close to the level of training as the main force, the French (and most other armies) aren't.
 
Xgentis

Xgentis

Gimple said:
ASB!!!

And I have a French WWII rifle never been used dropped once.
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GTFO with your borderline racist joke. The french made most of the fighting on the western front. They paid dearly for it with more then 1,300,000 soldier who died and more then 5,000,000 wounded on a population of 39,000,000. They had the second highest number of casualty in the entente after Russia. They did pretty well considering most of their industry were under german hands.:mad:
 

Parma

Cymraeg said:
I think that the French war minister, Messimy, tried to change the uniform colours in 1912 or 13, but was prevented by a bunch of imbeciles in the military who clung to the old ways. I'm trying to remember the name of the idiot who said: "Le pantalon rouge c'est la France!" and who helped to kill quite a few French soldiers as a result. I mean, for heavens sake, if even we Brits saw the need for khaki before the war, why couldn't the French military see reason on this?
Click to expand...

It was not only rejected by the military but also by the press, it were journalist who screamed "Le pantalon rouge c'est la France!
The proposed uniforms were olive green, and did had a slight resemblance with some German uniforms. The helmets (leather) had some resemblance with the later steel French helmet.
If the French would perform better in the early weeks of the Great War all the propagandist of the Esprit Elan have to descredid. The y had too much influence and discredid on their turn every body who opposed them. Even in the the first months of the war all officers who even mentioned tactical retread would be replaced or even be arrested for treason. Let have Gen. Foch have an accident or something some where in 1905.

for French uniform proposal : http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Uniforms/Uniform_Proposal.htm
 
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Flocculencio

Donor
Dunbar said:
I've got a couple ideas on how the French could do better at least at the beginning of the First World War:

1. The French strategy is focused on defending against a German thrust through Belgium.

While I think this is doable, there was a plan to defend against such a thing and the French gained an early draft of the Schlieffen plan in 1904, It would require that the French "Cult of the Offensive be discredited in some way. Also the French thought the early version of the Schlieffen plan was a ruse.

2. The French adopt modern uniforms earlier

Earlier adoption of more dull colors couldn't have hurt the French

3. Plan to use of reserve divisions in the same way the Germans used reserve divisions instead of planning to keep them behind the lines doing the clean up work. I think this would require some changes to the "Cult of the Offensive" as well.

4. The French offensives into Germany rout the defenders and are at the Rhine by Christmans, the British land on Germany's Northern Coast and are in Berlin by Boxing day and the war is over by New Years, Hooray. A man can dream can't he?


Anyway, if the French do adopt a plan of defending a German thrust through Belgium I see them being able to hold on to significantly more of North Eastern France than they did, thus greatly improving their position in later years. Also they wouldn't lose the men they did on their failed offensives into Germany. Meanwhile I see the Germans in a much worse position having lost more than they did in OTL as well as having gained less. Could this mean an earlier end to the War?
Click to expand...

Try reading The Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman- it gives a very detailed examination of the reasoning behind French strategy. All the indications were there- the French general staff for various reasons chose not to follow them.
 

sharlin

Banned
regarding the image of the french uniform up the top, the one with the baggy pants, what was that for? Forign troops I assume or was that frontline issue, it looks like something out of the Napoleonic era, the Zouaves or something if memory serves.

Also can something be done to Grimple. That was totally uncalled for.
 
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Elfwine

sharlin said:
Okay and that was French Empire troops wasnt it?
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North Africa, yup. At least in origin.

I think the best bet for a France performing better in WWI is in stuff that would be difficult to fix - this isn't a slight on France, its just hard to have lots of qualified NCOs, for instance.

France did about as well as could be expected, particularly with the cult of the offense.

Not to say better uniforms wouldn't help, but it wouldn't address the core problems in the way.
 

sharlin

Banned
I'll admit I know little about the French army at the time, what was this cult of the offensive that I saw mentioned?
 
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