WI: American culture without suburbs/car culture

[THE KINGFISH]

It’s no secret that America runs on cars. If you’re going to go anywhere, you need a car. Need to get food? Drive. Need to go to work? Drive. Going to see friends or going to a bar? Drive.

But what if America didn’t have this? What if instead, everybody lived in high-density areas where everything from work to shops to bars are in walking distance?

“But America is not as dense as European nations therefore we need cars!”

I mostly mean urban and suburban areas. I’m sure that rural European towns need cars as well to get from villages to cities. I mean that cars are not the only way to get around in urban/suburban areas. Other means being subways, light rail, commuter rail, high speed rail other than just being cars and highways. Not just in the Northeast but across the country and especially in places like California.

What would American culture look like if this was always the case?

 

[Nivek]

It’s no secret that America runs on cars. If you’re going to go anywhere, you need a car. Need to get food? Drive. Need to go to work? Drive. Going to see friends or going to a bar? Drive.

But what if America didn’t have this? What if instead, everybody lived in high-density areas where everything from work to shops to bars are in walking distance?

“But America is not as dense as European nations therefore we need cars!”

I mostly mean urban and suburban areas. I’m sure that rural European towns need cars as well to get from villages to cities. I mean that cars are not the only way to get around in urban/suburban areas. Other means being subways, light rail, commuter rail, high speed rail other than just being cars and highways. Not just in the Northeast but across the country and especially in places like California.

What would American culture look like if this was always the case?

Is not the USA THEM, DUDE USA is a continent, yet some regions are sparsely populated, once the car become independent enough, that's something everyone from the farmer to the businessmen wanted.

Another thing would be genuinely fairly economics, cars companies doesn't dismantle the electrical trainway and cities are planned with those alongside metro too. That's on big cities, in smaller one, Bus and Car will win, plain and simple

 

[THE KINGFISH]

Is not the USA THEM, DUDE USA is a continent, yet some regions are sparsely populated, once the car become independent enough, that's something everyone from the farmer to the businessmen wanted.

I addressed that. What I am saying is that cities and their surrounding suburban areas are more densely packed and have mass transit.

Another thing would be genuinely fairly economics, cars companies doesn't dismantle the electrical trainway and cities are planned with those alongside metro too. That's on big cities, in smaller one, Bus and Car will win, plain and simple

I wouldn’t say it would be that plain and simple. Assuming the post-war suburb growth doesn’t happen due to rubber still being expensive meaning not to many cars are made, that means that smaller cities don’t necessarily need a subway system.

They can however, rely on light rail systems like in smaller cities like Toronto.

 

[Nivek]

I addressed that. What I am saying is that cities and their surrounding suburban areas are more densely packed and have mass transit.

I wouldn’t say it would be that plain and simple. Assuming the post-war suburb growth doesn’t happen due to rubber still being expensive meaning not to many cars are made, that means that smaller cities don’t necessarily need a subway system.

They can however, rely on light rail systems like in smaller cities like Toronto.

Once again loading the dice because is not the answer you wants

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I wouldn’t say it would be that plain and simple. Assuming the post-war suburb growth doesn’t happen due to rubber still being expensive meaning not to many cars are made, that means that smaller cities don’t necessarily need a subway system.

Suburbs don't have to be nothing but single family dwellings in the North American model. Proper planning would also include shopping areas, schools, health care, places of worship, recreation facilities and light industrial areas. Yes you may still need a car for commuting but not to get a pint of milk or to get the kids to school.

 

[Godot]

Once again loading the dice because is not the answer you wants

This is a very strange way of putting it. He's narrowing the question to US urban areas and their environs, not somehow rigging the deck to produce an answer he wants.

 

[Aghasverov]

It’s no secret that America runs on cars. If you’re going to go anywhere, you need a car. Need to get food? Drive. Need to go to work? Drive. Going to see friends or going to a bar? Drive.

But what if America didn’t have this? What if instead, everybody lived in high-density areas where everything from work to shops to bars are in walking distance?

“But America is not as dense as European nations therefore we need cars!”

I mostly mean urban and suburban areas. I’m sure that rural European towns need cars as well to get from villages to cities. I mean that cars are not the only way to get around in urban/suburban areas. Other means being subways, light rail, commuter rail, high speed rail other than just being cars and highways. Not just in the Northeast but across the country and especially in places like California.

What would American culture look like if this was always the case?

To do this, you'd probably need no WWII (and thus no GI Bill/FHA/VA programs which sped up the pace of suburbanization) and a slower recovery from the Great Depression...
The US was heavily dependent on rail transport (both intercity, and streetcar/interurban lines, even in smaller cities) prior to the 1940's...

 

[Yankeewolf]

America is signifcantly poorer.

 

[PeterEzgo]

I think you are confusing cause and effect. American culture already had an independent streak prior to the invention of cars. Relying on public transportation undermines the feeling of independence that Americans want.

Also America is rich even when compared to Western Europe. If America's median income was cut in half, it would be just a little lower than Britain, Spain, or Italy. Part of America's car dependence is the fact that even relatively poor Americans can afford a car.

Combine those two things with the lower density of North America vs. Europe, you are going to find a heavy incentives for car culture.

Public transportation wasn't just dismantled by evil car companies (though there was some of that), it was dismantled because Americans didn't want to use it. To get rid of suburbs and car culture you have to get rid of the things that caused them to happen in the first place.

 

[THE KINGFISH]

America is signifcantly poorer.

How so? And by how much?

 

[Aisha Clan-Clan]

This is either a visibly less racist than our US(no white Reaction to the prospect of blacks moving in implying less racism) or visibly more racist(blacks not allowed to leave rural areas).

 

[Don Corleone]

Also America is rich even when compared to Western Europe. If America's median income was cut in half, it would be just a little lower than Britain, Spain, or Italy. Part of America's car dependence is the fact that even relatively poor Americans can afford a car.

To put it into perspective, the poorest state (Mississippi) would be a top 20 country.

 

[Denliner]

What would American culture look like if this was always the case?

I think car culture would still exist in America, but strictly in low-density towns and rural areas, where the car is treasured as a tool for work and a sign of independence.

Cities and suburbs, however, could be radically different if car culture wasn't a thing. Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, and other cities would have higher-quality public transportation and thus would be easier to travel for locals and tourists alike. Local communities would be further intertwined since everyone walks to work, groceries, social life, etc. and the architecture/city design would reflect this. POC communities also benefit heavily from having less highways in the cities since their communities were often the first target for eviction and later destruction of their homes for the construction of freeways.

Speaking of POC, America could arguably be less racist in this timeline because car culture was a factor in suburbanization and white flight, thus robbing cities of valuable tax income and also leaving POC communities in the dust. This doesn't mean this will be a utopia though since redlining and gentrification will probably ensure that white areas are on average more wealthy and better developed than ones populated by Blacks, Asians, or Latinos. Discrimination against POCs for transgressing those areas might be higher to compensate for whites being mostly unable to escape to the suburbs.

America, in theory, could be healthier mentally and physically since cars contribute to people's sedentary lifestyle and isolation while having shorter commutes to work means people are less bored/stressed. Not to mention shorter access to markets means there are far fewer food deserts, which means the poor are probably going to be healthier than OTL.

Harsher car regulations and less dependence on cars also mean we would see a lot fewer deaths due to car accidents, especially from drunk drivers.

 

[Grey Wolf]

I'm always surprised how in films underground railways look so disgustingly dirty in America. Maybe to make them more attractive the stations need better lighting, store the vehicles in sheds so that everyone and their kid sister doesn't scrawl obscenities over the outside, and generally make it seem modern and not sleazy

 

[Puzzle]

This is either a visibly less racist than our US(no white Reaction to the prospect of blacks moving in implying less racism) or visibly more racist(blacks not allowed to leave rural areas).

I tend to think policing would be considerably harsher. People won’t just accept high levels of crime if they can’t escape to the suburbs. Regardless of its related flaws throwing criminals or ‘criminals’ in jail and leaving them there is one way to reduce crime.

 

[Aghasverov]

Relying on public transportation undermines the feeling of independence that Americans want.

Reliance upon the automobile just substitutes dependence upon one thing, for dependence upon another
I found the year and four months that I spent without a D/L to be quite the liberating experience... cars can be a real pain in the ass

 

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

I'm always surprised how in films underground railways look so disgustingly dirty in America. Maybe to make them more attractive the stations need better lighting, store the vehicles in sheds so that everyone and their kid sister doesn't scrawl obscenities over the outside, and generally make it seem modern and not sleazy

Here's a clean, well-lit portrayal. >;k

 

[Aghasverov]

Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, and other cities would have higher-quality public transportation and thus would be easier to travel for locals and tourists alike. Local communities would be further intertwined since everyone walks to work, groceries, social life, etc. and the architecture/city design would reflect this.

LA and NYC could've had higher-quality public transportation, but in both cases, you had a highly-prominent and influential urban planner (Mulholland in LA and Moses in NYC) who were both openly hostile to mass transit... Traffic-clogged freeways are a visible sign of progress and vibrancy for a city, y'know

 

[phx1138]

thus no GI Bill/FHA/VA programs

Not necessarily.

The loans were loaded toward new construction. All it took was a lower APR for refurbishing an existing home.

There's a widespread issue of suburban developments being de facto subsidized (sewer, water, power, streets, & sidewalks all paid for by taxpayers, not the developer). Getting rid of that would be a big help. (How, I haven't a clue.)

There's an equally widespread absurdity of taxing agricultural land at city boundaries as if it was already city land. Getting rid of that would be a big help. (How, I haven't a clue.)

 

[Riain]

Firstly to address the PoD, because it's a fascinating topic.

IIUC the US used to be lousy with tram systems, by 1895 almost 900 electric street railways and nearly 11,000 miles (18,000 km) of track had been built in the United States. The US has streetcar suburbs designed around this mode of transport. This form of transport and the associated urban design died for various reasons, the main being an anti-trust law that said a company couldn't own a regulated industry (electrcity generation) and a non-regulation industry (streetcars), the streetcar suburbs got reveloped and people forgot they exisgted

The other pillar of car culture is urban design. There were attempts to create urban design like Radburn, where 47% of residents shopped for groceries on foot, but mainly it's single family dwellings as @Peg Leg Pom says. This is what really drives car culture, cookie-cutter single- use-residential suburbs that you can't even buy a loaf of bread because of bureaucratic zoning rules.

So there are multiple PoDs. Streetcar decline is much less significant, obviously many small systems in small cities will wither and die but big systems in big cities like LA could be kept alive with a bit of care and sheer inertia, with this the streetcar suburbs will remain mostly intact rather than be redeveloped into carparks. More suburbs like Radburn or other designs thinking along similar lines get developed, but much more importantly in the postwar era a few caveats get thrown into suburban rules; 10% of the dwelling must be medium density (duplex/semi-attached, not high rise shitholes) and above a certain size of subdivision there must be provision for retail.

That's about as good as you're going to get it. Streetcar suburbs where households have a single car into the 60s and outer suburbs where households have say 1.5 cars in the 60s instead of OTL where every household has 2 cars. This moves the needle of car ownership in the US, but overall not by much so there's still going to be a strong car culture despite many people living in cities and suburbs not having them, having smaller cars and/or using them less.