Why was A-L so important?

[Socrates]

Every history teacher I ever had were so smug when they told the class that line.

I always thought there's something about the term in English (perhaps the way it rolls strangely off the tongue) that loses its meaning. I think the term "the Sacred Roman Empire" or "the Sanctified Roman Empire" gives a better impression of what it meant.

 

[Socrates]

But while there was a degree of attempting to satisfy the people with a military conquest, there also was a degree of satisfying Baden and Bavaria, who without Alsace-Lorraine, would have had their territory on the new German border, leaving them somewhat threatened.

I always thought it was the reverse: the Prussian leadership wanted to make sure the border area was under federal control so that those jokers in Baden and Bavaria couldn't screw up defending the place.

 

[Imladrik]

I thought France had done more to make that cohesive - it certainly was more linguistically cohesive than that implies thanks to earlier (Richelieu, I think) actions.

"the French language has been essential to the concept of 'France', although in 1789 50% of the French people didn't speak it at all, and only 12 to 13% spoke it 'fairly' – in fact, even in oïl Language zones, out of a central region, it wasn't usually spoken except in cities, and, even there, not always in the faubourgs. In the North as in the South of France, almost nobody spoke French."

Eric Hobsbawn, Nations and Nationalism since 1780 : programme, myth, reality (Cambridge Univ. Press, 1990) chapter II "The popular protonationalism", pp.80–81 French edition
Renée Balibar, L'Institution du français: essai sur le co-linguisme des Carolingiens à la République, Paris, 1985 (also Le co-linguisme, PUF, Que sais-je ?, 1994
Renée Balibar and Dominique Laporte, Le Français national: politique et pratique de la langue nationale sous la Révolution, Paris, 1974

Edit : Just found another piece of data : Balibar estimate to 25% of people in France who could speak French in 1789 and 75% in 1800.

 

[Clandango]

But while there was a degree of attempting to satisfy the people with a military conquest, there also was a degree of satisfying Baden and Bavaria, who without Alsace-Lorraine, would have had their territory on the new German border, leaving them somewhat threatened.

What is this about Bohemia?

 

[Elfwine]

Imladrik: Huh. Interesting.

Although the reviews I read just now on his book are worrisome.

 

[anotherlurker]

given 200 years of integration into germany, the people of A-L surely would start feeling german again.

and even today selfdetermination doesnt mean anyting at all - ask a kurd, he'll tell you stories...

 

[Xgentis]

given 200 years of integration into germany, the people of A-L surely would start feeling german again.

and even today selfdetermination doesnt mean anyting at all - ask a kurd, he'll tell you stories...

So how do you explain that many minority groups did not integrate after century of being part of a county?

 

[Vingilótë]

I always thought it was the reverse: the Prussian leadership wanted to make sure the border area was under federal control so that those jokers in Baden and Bavaria couldn't screw up defending the place.

Or it might have been that. I've seen both.

What is this about Bohemia?

Huh? That was merely one reason why A-L was annexed. Though admittedly, when the treaties for the Austro-Prussian war were being written, A-L was not on anyone's mind.

 

[anotherlurker]

So how do you explain that many minority groups did not integrate after century of being part of a county?

getting shot up every now and then creates a certain we vs. them sentiment. dont want to be one of them in a we-village.

 

[Tripwire]

False. Just look at this map. The Vosges ar clearly difficult terrain, the south was closed by Belfort, and the only way out of Alsace lorraine was near Metz and could easily be blocked.

Indeed.
It did, however, make Germany easier to defend.

Right, I got it backwards, it's been a long time since I've read any of the book, I just remembered that annexation had a militarily strategic purpose for Germany.

"the French language has been essential to the concept of 'France', although in 1789 50% of the French people didn't speak it at all, and only 12 to 13% spoke it 'fairly' – in fact, even in oïl Language zones, out of a central region, it wasn't usually spoken except in cities, and, even there, not always in the faubourgs. In the North as in the South of France, almost nobody spoke French."

Eric Hobsbawn, Nations and Nationalism since 1780 : programme, myth, reality (Cambridge Univ. Press, 1990) chapter II "The popular protonationalism", pp.80–81 French edition
Renée Balibar, L'Institution du français: essai sur le co-linguisme des Carolingiens à la République, Paris, 1985 (also Le co-linguisme, PUF, Que sais-je ?, 1994
Renée Balibar and Dominique Laporte, Le Français national: politique et pratique de la langue nationale sous la Révolution, Paris, 1974

Edit : Just found another piece of data : Balibar estimate to 25% of people in France who could speak French in 1789 and 75% in 1800.

Out of curiosity, around what percentage of the population do you think spoke a Gallic language in general?

 

[Imladrik]

Out of curiosity, around what percentage of the population do you think spoke a Gallic language in general?

As i don't really have any hard data about population of the provinces, but at least 90% of the population of France spoke a Gallo-Romance language. In fact only 5 Language spoken in France weren't a Gallo-Romance language : Alsatian, Francique, Flammand, Breton and Basque.

 

[Mongo]

In fact only 5 Language spoken in France weren't a Gallo-Romance language : Alsatian, Francique, Flammand, Breton and Basque.

Okay, I know that Alsatian and Flamand (Flemish) are Germanic, Breton is Celtic and Basque is a language isolate, but what about Francique?

 

[Tripwire]

Okay, I know that Alsatian and Flamand (Flemish) are Germanic, Breton is Celtic and Basque is a language isolate, but what about Francique?

Wikipedia says its a blanket term for several West Central German dialects spoken in parts of Lorraine.

 

[ctesiphon]

Edit : Just found another piece of data : Balibar estimate to 25% of people in France who could speak French in 1789 and 75% in 1800.

50% of France's inhabitants learnt French in 11 years? Seems awfully fast.

 

[Imladrik]

50% of France's inhabitants learnt French in 11 years? Seems awfully fast.

I think it's a combination of generation, people being forced to speak French to the administration, a first small rural exodus and probably conscription. It's an estimation but it seems to be accepted by most French Historians i've read on the subject.

 

[Monty Burns]

getting shot up every now and then creates a certain we vs. them sentiment. dont want to be one of them in a we-village.

It's also the question how the minority differs from the majority.

Religion is a strong source of identity, but Alsaciennes are mixed Protestant and Catholic, right? the same as other South Western German states and hence somewhat different from France. All in all not enough to base a different identity upon.

Then there's language: in rural areas (and most of Alsace is rural) language persisted, thus the clear majority spoke Alsacienne, which is close to German, but not that close. If Alsace had become independent after 1815, it would probably be considered an own language by today as Luxembourgian or Swiss German. If Alsace had stayed part of Germany longer, German newspapers, radio and TV would have severely harmed the local language - as happened anywhere in Germany, and as happened with French in Alsace IOTL.

All in all, I think that if Alsace-Lorraine had stayed with Germany, Alsacienne-speaking parts would today consider themselves German and speak German in everyday life, but the French-speaking population would persist until today.


However, it's still a fact that the vast majority of Alsaciennes did not want to join Germany in 1870. That's all that matters from today's viewpoint IMHO, but that didn't matter at all in 1870, since if France had won they'd definitely tried to get Luxemburg and the Saar, populations of which didn't want to be French either.

 

[Admiral Matt]

Beyond all question. But I think we need to draw a distriction between arguments that "it was seen as _____" (whether ____ was true or not), and "it was" with the implication being that it was an objectively sound argument. Not sure which was what wolf brother intended - but people have made the argument in this thread as if it was French from the ninth century on.

Fair enough.

 

[Admiral Matt]

Edit : Just found another piece of data : Balibar estimate to 25% of people in France who could speak French in 1789 and 75% in 1800.

Due, of course, largely to the work of Berlitz and his wife Rosetta de Stone.

But seriously, half the country picked up a new language - in eleven years?

 

[Clandango]

Due, of course, largely to the work of Berlitz and his wife Rosetta de Stone.

But seriously, half the country picked up a new language - in eleven years?

The French Revolution took care of the rest with mass executions. Most of the areas that currently have linguistic minorities used to be Royalist bastions with special privileges until the Parisians decided to run the show.

 

[Imladrik]

Due, of course, largely to the work of Berlitz and his wife Rosetta de Stone.

But seriously, half the country picked up a new language - in eleven years?

For most of the country it wasn't a totaly new language, remember in the 25% there is only those who could speak the Central French Dialect which were easily mutually intelligible. Those who speak gallo or lorrain dialects for example couldn't speak with a Parisian in 1789, but could probably spoke a more proper French in 1800. It's easier to adapt to a close language than to a totaly new one. Even Occitan and Francoprovençal weren't so far from French.