During the first Balkan war after the Balkan alliance's victory the only thing between the bulgarians and the Ottoman Capitol were the last deefensive line of the Chataldzha. At that point in most european capitals it was assumed that Constatinople falling to the bulgarians is only a matter of time. As it turned out the Ottomans managed to stop the bulgarians surprising everyone.

During this period Russia was very agitated. The prospect of Bulgaria getting Constantinople was unacceptable for them. Because of this Russia began preparation for an amphibious attack to take the city - either from the turks or the bulgarians. During the whole crisis this possibility remained on the table for Russia though OTL they never went ahead with it.

What if the russians not only try it sometimes early 1913 but also succeed. By creating a fait accompli they would have created a crisis separate from the one already ongoing by the Balkan wars. What would be the reactions?

Please bear in mind that both Russia and Austria had gone very far with their military preparations in the winter of 1913 - Russia by retaining the soldiers who were supposedly done with their military service basically raised to wartime strength some of its western armies. Austria matched this - but Germany did not. So Germany would be caught pants down with this. Lets also add that Russia states that it will only mobilize if its western neighbours do so. The second Balkan war is also still coming.

France: would not be happy about this move but would not abandon Russia. They were too invested and actually Poincaré urged Russia to war at times during the 1913 crisis. Russia was seen (to a much greater extend than it was realistic) as the dominant power of the future - meaning that contrary to the actual situation Russia wasnt going to depend on France for its security and the french alliance might become a liability for Saint Petersburg. Further I dont think that with Poincaré in office France would change track. OTOH France had the most money invested from the great powers in the Ottoman Empire so its disintegration would be a heavy financial blow for Paris.

UK: I thing they might abandon Russia. Public opinion would be very strong against the Russian move. Grey would be placed in a very difficult position and might lose his position if he doesnt do anything against Russia. If a war starts from this London might sit it out or join much later.

Germany: was heavily invested in the continued survival of the Ottoman Empire. However it was far behind Russia in military preparedness at the moment so any rash action is out of the question. Also OTL in 1914 the government managed to sell the war to the people as self defense because Russia started mobilizing first. This time they would need to sell the war they start to reinstall the turks in Constantinople. Thats much harder to do. The absence or a much weaker form of the Burgfrieden would hamper a german wareffort severly.

Austria: It was the only other power militarily prepared. If a war started out of this the Austrians avoid their OTL 1914 botched mobilization and as the serbians ar still fighting in macedonia there is no danger there. They are however the least interested in the fate of Constantinople - they could try to use it as a bargaining chip - they accept the fait accompli in exchange of Russia either dropping Serbia or at least Serbian claims.

Ottomans: even if we assume that at least part of their leaderhip managed to get away during the surprise attack they will be still in huge chaos and turmoil. I dont think they would be able to react in a timely manner. Might the western powers decide on a partition?
 
In 1911 the Russians developed plans to take Constantinople with 2 Divisions and an Artillery Brigade in the first eschelon. They thought this capability would take 5 or 6 years to develop based on the state of the fleet and amount of Transport. In 1913 they were dismayed to find out that they had even less transport than they did in 1911 so they were many years away from the needed sea lift capability.
 
It might spiral in ww1. Similar to what might happened in 1978.

I think it wont. It will make a conflict escalating to war in the next crisis much more likely but Germany is the one who could start this conflict and they are in too bad a position to do it. However while I expect Russia to get away with it Britain will likely retaliate in some manner. Maybe take the Dardenelles or the Agean islands right before the Dardenelles.
 
I think it wont. It will make a conflict escalating to war in the next crisis much more likely but Germany is the one who could start this conflict and they are in too bad a position to do it. However while I expect Russia to get away with it Britain will likely retaliate in some manner. Maybe take the Dardenelles or the Agean islands right before the Dardenelles.
But if it do Bulgaria is more likely be on Russia Serbia side. Russia have more chances wining wwi .and why use navy can talk to Bulgaria to let Russia troops thru. If Russia on side of Bulgaria no second Balkan war.
 
I don't believe it will start WWI. Russia is going to have a bit of a time pacifying the area's taken. I'll have to really dig into some books to try and remember enough details about the situation to make a good assessment, so the rest of this is off the top of my head. The Brits will accept it, because of the fear of Germany. I think they will re-position portions of the RN, reinforcing their units already in the Med. France wont' object because of Germany. Austria wont like it, but they are somewhat compromised because of the double dealing over the Straits they did earlier. Nevertheless, tensions will be raised. A partial mobilization aimed at the Ottomans is still a mobilization, so all parties will be tense. This means a conference will be called, and if Russian diplomacy is better than it has been for years, the "Sick Man" may be partitioned. How that works out, who gets what, I don't know. Feel free to disagree here, this is a good discussion, some nice TL's could spring from this.
 

Deleted member 94680

Britain won’t accept it - “fear” of Germany or not (which they didn’t have, btw).

We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do
We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too
We've fought the Bear before, and while we're Britons true
The Russians shall not have Constantinople
.”

Quite literally jingoism - look it up.

It took WWI, repeated German advances and the suspicion of a Russian early exit before Whitehall would agree to the Russians having Constantinople. None of that is present here. ITTL, the standard British practice of propping up the Ottomans after a defeat will apply.
 

Driftless

Donor
Impact on the Russian Revolution? Does it still happen? IF the revolution happens at some point, What happens to Constantinople then? IF the Russians/Soviets retain Constantinople into WW2, how does that play out?
 
Britain won’t accept it - “fear” of Germany or not (which they didn’t have, btw).

We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do
We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too
We've fought the Bear before, and while we're Britons true
The Russians shall not have Constantinople
.”

Quite literally jingoism - look it up.

It took WWI, repeated German advances and the suspicion of a Russian early exit before Whitehall would agree to the Russians having Constantinople. None of that is present here. ITTL, the standard British practice of propping up the Ottomans after a defeat will apply.

Would Britain start a war 1 vs 1 against Russia? Usually they sought some ally to either fight together or better yet fight instead of them. The only such possibility is Germany but that would also mean awar against France. And as I said in the winter of 1913 russian (and austrian) forces were practically already partly mobilized while Germans none at all. If the germans want to start a war the Schlieffen plan is impossible - though I think in 1913 they still had an Ostaufmarsch plan.

If London can get none on board or decides that it doesnt want a continental war wouldnt it content itself with taking the Dardanelles and or some aegean islands to bottle up the Russians?

If there is a localized russian british war and the brits take Constantinople will they give it back to the Ottomans, keep it or something else (free port or give it to Greece)?

But if it do Bulgaria is more likely be on Russia Serbia side. Russia have more chances wining wwi .and why use navy can talk to Bulgaria to let Russia troops thru. If Russia on side of Bulgaria no second Balkan war.

Not impossible I have to admit but Bulgaria and the other Balkan states still cant agree on the "loot".

Impact on the Russian Revolution? Does it still happen? IF the revolution happens at some point, What happens to Constantinople then? IF the Russians/Soviets retain Constantinople into WW2, how does that play out?

If a WWI happens I think a revolution is still likely. Than what happens to Constantinople it likely goes back to Turkey or one of the Balkan states takes it. Without the might of Russia behing it the city would be taken. Or maybe Britain or someone else steps in - than free port. The most tragic outcome would be if the russians after taking the city expelled all the muslim and sent in a lot of russians just for the ottomans to retake it about 5 years later to do something similar or worse.
 
1908 (or whenever it was) seems to be a better opportunity, the Russians and Austrians made a deal, Austria gets to annex Bosnia with Russian support/blessing and Russia gets to take the straits with Austrian support/blessing, though in the end the Russians chickened out of doing their part. What if they went ahead with it? A potential war over it would have A-H sitting at the side line which would really help Russia.
 

BooNZ

Banned
But if it do Bulgaria is more likely be on Russia Serbia side. Russia have more chances wining wwi .and why use navy can talk to Bulgaria to let Russia troops thru. If Russia on side of Bulgaria no second Balkan war.
I suspect the CP powers would happily swap Bulgaria for Britain and Italy...
 

BooNZ

Banned
1908 (or whenever it was) seems to be a better opportunity, the Russians and Austrians made a deal, Austria gets to annex Bosnia with Russian support/blessing and Russia gets to take the straits with Austrian support/blessing, though in the end the Russians chickened out of doing their part. What if they went ahead with it? A potential war over it would have A-H sitting at the side line which would really help Russia.
I don't think it was that the Russians chickened out, it was that Russia required far more than A-H consent to take the Straights. A rerun of the Crimean war does not help Russia much.
 
I don't think it was that the Russians chickened out, it was that Russia required far more than A-H consent to take the Straights. A rerun of the Crimean war does not help Russia much.
Not going into Anatolia due to fears of British involvement kinda is "to chicken out". That they're not getting the straits without some kind of war is rather obvious. Simply thrashing the Turks was not really a new thing for them, or particularly hard. The question is just what to do should the British have an issue with this Nth Russo-Turkish war.

Would be interesting to know how a new Crimean war would turn out, infrastructure in the region had improved a lot since the last one.
 

BooNZ

Banned
Not going into Anatolia due to fears of British involvement kinda is "to chicken out". That they're not getting the straits without some kind of war is rather obvious. Simply thrashing the Turks was not really a new thing for them, or particularly hard. The question is just what to do should the British have an issue with this Nth Russo-Turkish war.

Would be interesting to know how a new Crimean war would turn out, infrastructure in the region had improved a lot since the last one.
It's not just the British. The French are the Ottomans largest creditor, the Kaiser is a self professed defender of Islam (or similar) and Germany has already appeased the Russians by keeping its Berlin to Bagdad railway project a significant distance from the Ottoman-Russian border. Essentially Russia would be jeopardising its world standing among all who matter for a previously unknown objective to frolic in Anatolia - this would appear to be unwise.

If push comes to shove, the British can execute a low intensity naval-economic war, blockading Russian maritime trade and pulling financial levers. It might also force the British to pay the price of German friendship - whatever the F**k that might be. Essentially an eagle v shark scenario, where the eagle has to land eventually.
 
Get Japanese help maybe, were they in any condition for another war with Russia?

Financially no though the british might help out with that. But what would be their goal? They dont know of the oil in Northern Sakhalin which is thus considered worthless and have taken pretty much everything they wanted on the mainland. Also Japan did reach an accord with russia around this time - im not sure of the date. The thing was that however much each of them wanted Manchuria both were more interested in keeping the rest - especially the USA and in smaller part the british out.

Im also interested in France. How would the french react to a russo-british war? If they dont join Russia early than bringing in Japan would increase the probability of french intervention later.
 

Deleted member 94680

Would Britain start a war 1 vs 1 against Russia? Usually they sought some ally to either fight together or better yet fight instead of them.

Except they wouldn’t start a “1 vs 1 war”, would they? It would be (as you yourself pointed out) what Britain always did - fighting through a proxy or as part of a Great Power alliance.

The only such possibility is Germany but that would also mean awar against France.

How? What about Austria-Hungary, Italy or (I dunno...) maybe even the Ottomans? Come to that, what about the Bulgarians and the Greeks? All of them have an interest in keeping Russia out of The Straights and all Russia can offer in ‘compensation’ is things they don’t want or can take themselves.

And as I said in the winter of 1913 Russian (and Austrian) forces were practically already partly mobilized while Germans had none at all. If the Germans want to start a war the Schlieffen plan is impossible - though I think in 1913 they still had an Ostaufmarsch plan.

The Germans are the hardest sell on this for that very reason. The Russians can’t take Constantinople by some “lighting raid” - they couldn’t even manage it in WWI when fully mobilised - so any anti-Russian forces will have a window to mobilise in. But as for the Germans, by 1913 they’ve got Moltke the Younger, so they won’t come up with any kind of radical plan. It’ll be Frontiers/Marne/Race to the Sea a year early for them, or nothing.

If London can't get anyone on board or decides that it doesn't want a continental war would it content itself with taking the Dardanelles and or some Aegean Islands to bottle up the Russians?

Easiest option. Although they wouldn’t “take them”, they’d land troops there to work with the Ottoman locals. The Russians gain the City of Constantinople, a lot of pissed off Turkish subjects, devastate their Black Sea naval capability and still won’t gain access to the Med.

If there is a localised Russian-British war and the Brits take Constantinople will they give it back to the Ottomans, keep it or something else (free port or give it to Greece)?

There won’t be, but if there was somehow, they’d give it back. Why would they want to keep it? Also, think of the debts that could be leveraged out of the Sublime Porte as the “Saviours of Constantinople”...



I don't see why the Turks are completely absent from your calculations? The Fall of Constantinople won’t mean the end of Ottoman resistance. This isn’t some film or video game where the capital falls and the whole empire stops fighting. The Russians won’t be able to attack very quickly and the Ottoman government will have hours if not days of notice that they’re coming. The important figures will leave (probably inland to Ankara or somewhere similar) and a military government will prepare to meet the Russian advance. Diplomats will scream bloody murder in the embassies of Europe and allies will be found. It’s the Crimean War all over again and the same forces will probably align...
 

BooNZ

Banned
The Germans are the hardest sell on this for that very reason. The Russians can’t take Constantinople by some “lighting raid” - they couldn’t even manage it in WWI when fully mobilised - so any anti-Russian forces will have a window to mobilise in. But as for the Germans, by 1913 they’ve got Moltke the Younger, so they won’t come up with any kind of radical plan. It’ll be Frontiers/Marne/Race to the Sea a year early for them, or nothing.
Prior to July 1914, I don't think German military planning (or lack thereof) had a significant impact on German diplomacy (or lack thereof). Faced with an Anglo-Russian conflict, the German immediate reaction would likely be to reach for the pop corn and get comfy for the show. Obviously, French diplomacy would already be in tatters.

The Germans would need to be a bunch of nincompoops not to benefit greatly from this scenario...

I don't see why the Turks are completely absent from your calculations? The Fall of Constantinople won’t mean the end of Ottoman resistance. This isn’t some film or video game where the capital falls and the whole empire stops fighting. The Russians won’t be able to attack very quickly and the Ottoman government will have hours if not days of notice that they’re coming. The important figures will leave (probably inland to Ankara or somewhere similar) and a military government will prepare to meet the Russian advance. Diplomats will scream bloody murder in the embassies of Europe and allies will be found. It’s the Crimean War all over again and the same forces will probably align...
I have always found the purported rationale for the build up of the Russian Black Sea fleet fleet to seize the Straights and the threats relating thereto to be rather curious. Does anyone have the imagination to expect a remotely positive outcome from large scale Russian amphibious operations in that period? Am I missing something?
 
Except they wouldn’t start a “1 vs 1 war”, would they? It would be (as you yourself pointed out) what Britain always did - fighting through a proxy or as part of a Great Power alliance.



How? What about Austria-Hungary, Italy or (I dunno...) maybe even the Ottomans? Come to that, what about the Bulgarians and the Greeks? All of them have an interest in keeping Russia out of The Straights and all Russia can offer in ‘compensation’ is things they don’t want or can take themselves.



The Germans are the hardest sell on this for that very reason. The Russians can’t take Constantinople by some “lighting raid” - they couldn’t even manage it in WWI when fully mobilised - so any anti-Russian forces will have a window to mobilise in. But as for the Germans, by 1913 they’ve got Moltke the Younger, so they won’t come up with any kind of radical plan. It’ll be Frontiers/Marne/Race to the Sea a year early for them, or nothing.



Easiest option. Although they wouldn’t “take them”, they’d land troops there to work with the Ottoman locals. The Russians gain the City of Constantinople, a lot of pissed off Turkish subjects, devastate their Black Sea naval capability and still won’t gain access to the Med.



There won’t be, but if there was somehow, they’d give it back. Why would they want to keep it? Also, think of the debts that could be leveraged out of the Sublime Porte as the “Saviours of Constantinople”...



I don't see why the Turks are completely absent from your calculations? The Fall of Constantinople won’t mean the end of Ottoman resistance. This isn’t some film or video game where the capital falls and the whole empire stops fighting. The Russians won’t be able to attack very quickly and the Ottoman government will have hours if not days of notice that they’re coming. The important figures will leave (probably inland to Ankara or somewhere similar) and a military government will prepare to meet the Russian advance. Diplomats will scream bloody murder in the embassies of Europe and allies will be found. It’s the Crimean War all over again and the same forces will probably align...
Is Ankara capital of Ottoman Empire?
 
Except they wouldn’t start a “1 vs 1 war”, would they? It would be (as you yourself pointed out) what Britain always did - fighting through a proxy or as part of a Great Power alliance.



How? What about Austria-Hungary, Italy or (I dunno...) maybe even the Ottomans? Come to that, what about the Bulgarians and the Greeks? All of them have an interest in keeping Russia out of The Straights and all Russia can offer in ‘compensation’ is things they don’t want or can take themselves.

Except that it would be harder to get anyone on board. I think you are owerstating Austrian interest of keeping the strait out of Russian hands - look at 1908. Austria is interested in the western Balkans. As I said Russia can strike a deal with Austria on the expense of Serbia. The Bulgarians are not going to be happy but if Serbia is already dropped to appease AH the Russian can kick them again by fulfilling bulgarian wishes in Macedonia. Greece will obviously want the city but would they join a war that aims it handing back to the Ottomans - with whom they are at war with at the moment? And the Ottomans were already loosing the Balkan wars badly. The fall of the Capital and the possible capture/death of a good chunk of the government - we are speaking of a surprise attack - and a good possibility of infighting in that case - even if the sultan gets away his legitimacy will be in tatters - make them very difficult to both predict and asses their fightin power.

The Germans are the hardest sell on this for that very reason. The Russians can’t take Constantinople by some “lighting raid” - they couldn’t even manage it in WWI when fully mobilised - so any anti-Russian forces will have a window to mobilise in. But as for the Germans, by 1913 they’ve got Moltke the Younger, so they won’t come up with any kind of radical plan. It’ll be Frontiers/Marne/Race to the Sea a year early for them, or nothing.

In WWI the Russians didnt try. By that time russian military leadership accepted that in a great war against the CP's it wont have the troops to spar for an attack of this kind.

I also accept that the russians capacity to make the proposed attack on Constantinople is lacking. However as they have already entertained the idea years earlier lets add another POD - they actually make preparations for such an attack from around 1910 and with some luck, surprise and turkish incompetence even topping russian they succeed.

Easiest option. Although they wouldn’t “take them”, they’d land troops there to work with the Ottoman locals. The Russians gain the City of Constantinople, a lot of pissed off Turkish subjects, devastate their Black Sea naval capability and still won’t gain access to the Med.

And thats the point. I cant imagine the russian-british entente surviving this but the russians will still be easily kept out of the Med. Is it worth to start a war to achive what can be achieved in a much cheaper way? Especially if other great powers are reluctant to get on board.

There won’t be, but if there was somehow, they’d give it back. Why would they want to keep it? Also, think of the debts that could be leveraged out of the Sublime Porte as the “Saviours of Constantinople”...

Because its an incredibly important strategic location and the british have the tendency to keep those (Gibraltar, Malta, Singapur, Suez)? Or because London decides the Otto's cant be trusted to keep the russians out? Also depends greatly of what comes out of the chaos that the ottomans are left in. If they fight against the russian with a semblance of competence the british might decide to continue to prop them up. But this question I raised because im not sure of the answer.

I don't see why the Turks are completely absent from your calculations? The Fall of Constantinople won’t mean the end of Ottoman resistance. This isn’t some film or video game where the capital falls and the whole empire stops fighting. The Russians won’t be able to attack very quickly and the Ottoman government will have hours if not days of notice that they’re coming. The important figures will leave (probably inland to Ankara or somewhere similar) and a military government will prepare to meet the Russian advance. Diplomats will scream bloody murder in the embassies of Europe and allies will be found. It’s the Crimean War all over again and the same forces will probably align...

For turks: see arlier in my post. In the Crimean War you had french on board - now they will side with Russia. Austria can make a deal. Germany is militarily unprepared and would have to start to mobilize well behind Russia. Italy is not directly interested in the straits and like Austria are more interested in the western Balkans. The balkan states are still at war with the Ottomans so its hard to see them joining a coalition with it - not to mention that serbia and bulgaria are initially aligned with Russia - this will change as russia is forced to chose between them. And the Crimean war was localized to a small Area. If any of the german powers gets involved it will be an alt WWI and not Crimea what you get.
 
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