What if different British initial strategy in WWI

[Tibi088]

Im reading a book about the british navy before WWI. Regarding the british entry in to a continental war between Germany and France the Admirality had very different ideas how that war should be conducted than the army. The navy basically envisionaged a purely naval war and only transporting the BEF to France if the military situation makes it necessery. On their part they were thinking of close blocade and the possibility of landing troops in Schleswig-Holstein.

So what if Brittain adopt a strategy based on this at the beginning of WWI. So London deliveres the ultimatum and declares war on Germany as per OTL. However the BEF isnt dispatched to France as per OTL. When would the BEF be finally sent to France? Would there be any significant delay as the scope of Germanies opening offensive becomes clear? Could that be decisive? What do you think would change in the naval war with this?

 

[HenraldGK]

The British Navy was far stronger than the German Kreigsmarine at this time, so a naval war would be very favourable to the British. If the BEF were not deployed to France, then the German Army would probably be wrong-footed as to guessing the plans of the British Army. The advance into France in 1914 would probably have been worse than in OTL, but I doubt that Paris would hav fallen. If the German army got too close to Paris, then the BEF would certainly headed for France, but by this stage a Second Army would probably have been rasied. A landing could well have been made in Northern Germany in conjunction with a reinforcement of French positions by a British Second Army. This would have been a massive balancing act, but a blockaded empire in a three-front war would have been untenable and a major offensive in the Spring of 1916 may have ended the war, although with heavy casualties for the British especially - the landing in Northern Germany may have turned out like Gallipoli.

 

[HJ Tulp]

The Royal Navy comes charging in the Hochsee Flottes backyard? That's a recipe for Allied disaster. The Germans will have all the advantages of mines, submarines, torpedoboats and coastal guns.

 

[Antiochus V]

I would say that Gallipoli and the challenges of amphibious assaults in WW2 suggests that it would have been very difficult to manage, and that is before we look at what coastal defences and minefields the Germans had in place.

However that said if the UK had invested heavily in an amphibious capability pre-war, with plentiful mine sweepers, landing craft and support ships it might have posed a real dilemma for Germany. The German army would have to retain a large coastal force, as later would the Ottomans.

I still think supporting the French with the BEF was the correct course of action, but later in the war the amphibious capability would have been useful.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

The Royal Navy comes charging in the Hochsee Flottes backyard? That's a recipe for Allied disaster. The Germans will have all the advantages of mines, submarines, torpedoboats and coastal guns.

Which is why they abandoned the close blokade OTL before the war had started much to the KMs dismay as they had based their entire war plan over the Royal Navy coming charging into the Hochsee Flottes backyard where the Germans will have all the advantages of mines, submarines, torpedoboats and coastal guns.

And also any damaged British ship would have to limp back to the UK while similarly damaged German ships wold be very close to a freindly port.

The RN instead maintained the distant blockade with the home fleet and instead only raided into the 'close blockade area'

My opinion of the BEF is that it was fairly important in stopping the Germans at the Muese but I still cannot help but wonder if it would not have been better used in expanding the BEF with each Regular Division forming the Nucleus of a Corps using Haldanes TA Divisions to expand them (perhaps even using each Regular Battalion as the nucleus of a given Brigade) before sendng 20 odd Trained divisions to Fance in November!

 

[Alanith]

The British Navy was far stronger than the German Kreigsmarine at this time, so a naval war would be very favourable to the British. If the BEF were not deployed to France, then the German Army would probably be wrong-footed as to guessing the plans of the British Army. The advance into France in 1914 would probably have been worse than in OTL, but I doubt that Paris would hav fallen. If the German army got too close to Paris, then the BEF would certainly headed for France, but by this stage a Second Army would probably have been rasied. A landing could well have been made in Northern Germany in conjunction with a reinforcement of French positions by a British Second Army. This would have been a massive balancing act, but a blockaded empire in a three-front war would have been untenable and a major offensive in the Spring of 1916 may have ended the war, although with heavy casualties for the British especially - the landing in Northern Germany may have turned out like Gallipoli.

It's an excellent plan for the RN...

If they want to lose the war. Sail right into the teeth of minefields, coastal defense guns, torpedo boats, submarines, etc etc? All the HSF has to do is wait in port till half the RN battleline is underwater or being towed back to port, then sortie and shatter the ragged remains. How long will England stay in the war with the RN decisively defeated and the HSF free to shatter any attempts at blockade at will?

 

[Glenn239]

Im reading a book about the british navy before WWI. Regarding the british entry in to a continental war between Germany and France the Admirality had very different ideas how that war should be conducted than the army. The navy basically envisionaged a purely naval war and only transporting the BEF to France if the military situation makes it necessery. On their part they were thinking of close blocade and the possibility of landing troops in Schleswig-Holstein.

So what if Brittain adopt a strategy based on this at the beginning of WWI. So London deliveres the ultimatum and declares war on Germany as per OTL. However the BEF isnt dispatched to France as per OTL. When would the BEF be finally sent to France? Would there be any significant delay as the scope of Germanies opening offensive becomes clear? Could that be decisive? What do you think would change in the naval war with this?

Under the navy plan the BEF would presumably not have taken up position on the flank of the French 5th Army and therefore would not have participated in the great retreat after the Battle of the Frontiers. However, it might have landed along the coast, perhaps in the vicinity of Dunkirk or Calais to threaten the lines of communication of the German 1st Army as this advanced southwest into France. Would that have helped or hurt the Entente cause? I don't know.

 

[Vornado]

Couldn't this have resulted in the Germans winning the 1st Battle of the Marne? The French were already outnumbered with the BEF there. Without it, the Germans may have overwhelmed the French. Regardless, the Germans would have captured more territory in their initial advance further hurting France's war production.

As other posters have said any landing in Northern Germany would have turned into Gallipoli but worse as it would be British men dying very close to home.

 

[Gavp]

Think the course of action for the army was correct if france fell the war would be lost, the navy and some forces should have landed in alexandretta though and not gallipoli

 

[Gudestein]

Think the course of action for the army was correct if france fell the war would be lost

Isn’t it that simple?

 

[FillyofDelphi]

Couldn't this have resulted in the Germans winning the 1st Battle of the Marne? The French were already outnumbered with the BEF there. Without it, the Germans may have overwhelmed the French. Regardless, the Germans would have captured more territory in their initial advance further hurting France's war production.

Quite possibly, but given the strained position of German logistics and how exhausted the men were from weeks of constant forced marches and heavy fighting, Germany making a lunge for more territory may very well end up being a "bridge too far"; meaning when the French turn around and counter-attack the Germans will either take that much more damage from being in worse shape and not dug in and a less-ordered retreat, resulting in a net lose of territory seized by the time the front settles in. Germany's advances in August really were amazing, but by the time of the Marne they were running out of steam and needed time to rest and recuperate.

Really, though, that depends on the French holding firm and being able to stop the general retreat before you end up with a gap between the forces in the North and the east, to say nothing of throwing the country into a state of early morale panic if they don't hold a line that protects Paris and thus have to abandon the capital (No way your propaganda can paper over that). Still, if there's one thing the French army has in spades in 1914 its Elan, so getting them to launch a counter-attack is hardly pushing the odds.

 

[Riain]

The 1914 German Order of Battle included the Army of the North; IX Reserve Corps, 4 x 'mixed' (with inf, cav & arty) Landwehr Brigades and garisons of North Sea Islands. Added to this would be the land forces of the North Sea Naval Station with a Seebattalion Regiment, Matrosen reserve infantry regiment, Seewehr as well as the coastal guns, mines and torpedo and of course the High Sea Fleet. These forces were kept in the area until after it became obvious that the British were fully engaged in Belgium and France, and would make any attempt to land on the German North Sea coast virtually impossible.

Without the BEF landing in France and fighting at Mons and Le Cateau the German 1st Army would likely completely outflank and encircle the French V Army and eliminate it from the campaign between 20-25 August. This would transform the German advance by giving it a sustained advantage in numbers to the Marne and beyond and perhaps allow it to besiege Paris.

As for the BEF operating further north.

• The Royal Marine Brigade landed in Ostend Aug 27 but withdrew Aug 31 as the BEF moved further south.
• The RMB landed in Dunkirk on Sept 19, reinforced by Churchill's TA Yeomanry Regiment and the RN Armoured cars on Sep 22.
• The BEF began moving north to Flanders on the night of Oct 2
• The RMB was reinforced as the Royal Naval Division and sent to Antwerp on Oct 6 until Oct 9
• VII and III Cav division were formed into IV Corps in Calais Oct 9 and bought under BEF command not long after.

Mix all of those elements together and you get the answer to the OP question.

 

[Glenn239]

Without the BEF in France it very well may be that French 5th Army does not get into such a vulnerable position in the first place, or that Joffre moves a number of his reserve or territorial divisions to replace the missing BEF.

 

[Riain]

Without the BEF in France it very well may be that French 5th Army does not get into such a vulnerable position in the first place, or that Joffre moves a number of his reserve or territorial divisions to replace the missing BEF.

Groupe D'Amade was on the outside of the BEF, consisting of a couple of territorial divisions but at one stage 2 reserve division and 4 territorials. It wasn't in contact, it was more like a sheepdog steering the mob away by creating the path of least resistance.

However I think that without the BEF to give weight to the left flank the V Army would be even more exposed and the French in deeper shit.

 

[Lindseyman]

My opinion of the BEF is that it was fairly important in stopping the Germans at the Muese but I still cannot help but wonder if it would not have been better used in expanding the BEF with each Regular Division forming the Nucleus of a Corps using Haldanes TA Divisions to expand them (perhaps even using each Regular Battalion as the nucleus of a given Brigade) before sendng 20 odd Trained divisions to Fance in November!

The Army hierarchy considered the Territorials somewhat of a joke, so they wouldn't have done this. My grandfather was in the Territorials before WW I (it was something to do, not much happened in Louth at the time) and was, according to him, called up on the declaration of war but wasn't sent to France until spring of 1915 as he had to be trained "properly".

NOTE:He served all through the war rising to be Battery Serjeant Major in the RFA and regaled me and my sister with numerous horror stories of his service (usually at Christmas or Armistice Sunday) but never how he got his DCM.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

The Army hierarchy considered the Territorials somewhat of a joke, so they wouldn't have done this. My grandfather was in the Territorials before WW I (it was something to do, not much happened in Louth at the time) and was, according to him, called up on the declaration of war but wasn't sent to France until spring of 1915 as he had to be trained "properly".

NOTE:He served all through the war rising to be Battery Serjeant Major in the RFA and regaled me and my sister with numerous horror stories of his service (usually at Christmas or Armistice Sunday) but never how he got his DCM.

The problem with many TA (TF?) units during that time were that it’s better Officers ‘rejoined’ their regular units further degrading the TA unit. Had the plan been to build TA brigades around regular battalions then this issue would not be as serious.

 

[Glenn239]

Groupe D'Amade was on the outside of the BEF, consisting of a couple of territorial divisions but at one stage 2 reserve division and 4 territorials. It wasn't in contact, it was more like a sheepdog steering the mob away by creating the path of least resistance.

However I think that without the BEF to give weight to the left flank the V Army would be even more exposed and the French in deeper shit.

I think without the BEF Joffre will replace the lost British divisions with territorial or reserve divisions. I doubt 5th Army is destroyed.

 

[BlondieBC]

Im reading a book about the british navy before WWI. Regarding the british entry in to a continental war between Germany and France the Admirality had very different ideas how that war should be conducted than the army. The navy basically envisionaged a purely naval war and only transporting the BEF to France if the military situation makes it necessery. On their part they were thinking of close blocade and the possibility of landing troops in Schleswig-Holstein.

So what if Brittain adopt a strategy based on this at the beginning of WWI. So London deliveres the ultimatum and declares war on Germany as per OTL. However the BEF isnt dispatched to France as per OTL. When would the BEF be finally sent to France? Would there be any significant delay as the scope of Germanies opening offensive becomes clear? Could that be decisive? What do you think would change in the naval war with this?

Short answer. War goes much worse for the UK, and CP probably wins. Details depend on which of the War Plans you have the UK using. Did you have a preference?

So let's sketch the outlines that one might start writing an ATL from. Obviously some different prewar decisions are made, so by the start of the war, the Navy not Army plan is executed. Looking at OTL, we see British forces a few weeks into war. Amphibious invasions are more complicated than landing at friendly port, so we probably have a 6-8 week window before we can see the landings. September 25th sounds like a good discussion point for the assault.

So we get to early in the war. UK navy will rush out into the North Sea early in the war. The Grand fleet will have to stay here. Cruisers will start operating near the German coast. Losses will mount to smaller ships, mines and the like. The destroyers don't have enough range to operate from London, so the UK to take some island. German island are well defended, so the UK has to invade Dutch, Danish, or Swedish Island for supply depots. Each looks different. This will be a fairly small operation against a small island. I think the Danish makes most sense, so now you have added the Danish strength to Germans. It will be an intense battle of smaller ships with bad loss ratios for the RN. The RN can take these losses, but nothing happens for a few months here.

Lets jump to the land part. I will split post since easier that way.

 

[BlondieBC]

Second Part.

@Tibi088

Look at the map of the Frontiers from Wiki.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Bataille_des_Frontières.svg

The French 5th army was vulnerable to encirclement twice IOTL. Here there flank is hanging even more in the open. The French probably lose this army, but even if saved it will mean a significant retreat. The Germans will stall due to supplies. We can talk a lot about the details, but we basically see the lines likely stabilizing near the Marne with the French down an army compared to OTL.

The UK will then be forced to land. If direct land on the German coast, it will be suicide. And looking at OTL, the UK avoid landing in fortified areas. So we see the UK landing somewhere in Jutland where it will be stalled by German and probably Danish forces. Then we see all the lines stall. The Germans likely do the Race to the Sea except there will be nothing to oppose them. It really will be the March to the Sea. Calais is in German hands, and this is huge.

Now nothing here fixes the A-H performance. We can debate if Italy enters the war, but lets have them enter on time for simplicity. The land war will be non-decisive in the French and Russian theaters since the Russians have too much depth to lose fast and the French get a breather since Germany has to deal with Russia in 1915. But the BEF is an anchor on the RN. Losses will keep piling up until the Germans control the near coast. Then the BEF will be cutoff and will die. The UK loses two plus armies here.

So we likely roll into 1916. The eastern front is stable for the Germans. Germany has not done any USW since it is too busy attacking RN ships withing 150 miles of the coast. In the West, we see the Entente short 3 plus armies. Lot of flexibility writing an ATL since we have had a lot of butterflies, but this year will be the decisive win for the CP. Take this as a midpoint outcome. It could be faster with things like a French panic, could be slower if butterflies cause additional CP mistakes or avoids Entente mistakes. Something like Russian 1st or 2nd Army escaping due to butterflies is not unreasonable.

On side note, this is huge Ottoman buff. With the open amphibious fronts in Jutland and desperate need for additional Entente troops to save Paris or save Calais, Gallipoli is unlikely to happen. The Australian national identity is forge in some other fierce battles. The Ottomans still make mistakes, but give the lack of pressure, the Ottoman have enough troops and time to recover.

On second side note, if Italy does not enter the war, the war could in 1915 or very early 1916 with CP victory. The offensive against the Russians in the East does not stop until force by snow. If the CP lines are 150ish miles to the east and most of the Austrian forces facing Italy are in the East, then the strategic situation for the Entente is even worse. Also, with more troops, Serbia will fall faster. Bulgaria will likely enter the war sooner. Ottoman supply situation will improve a bunch. Italy will make a fortune selling war materials to CP. All that ammo shot against Italy is usable on other fronts.

 

[VoidStalker]

The French would have to factor in the full loss of coal from the Bethune region in such a situation which would not do any favors to their production capacity. And if the BEF is tied up in Danish lands what stops the Germans from just working around the French flanks and taking first the 5th Army then the 4th Army? Do the French have enough forces to stall the 1st German while the French 5th is battling the 2nd German?