What do you think the world would be like today if the Central Powers won WWI?

[Reflection]

Pretty simple, really. What's your best guess as to what the world looks like now if Germany, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire and Bulgaria had won The Great War? It's hard to predict this alternate 2024 because there's so many variables in the century that follows it, but one thing's for sure it's not anything like the one we know.

It's honestly hard for me to say for sure, but my best guesses:

• Colonialism/Imperialism still exists at least to some degree, though decolonization would still occur in a slower and more natural matter.
• Communism as an ideology only remains a theory, because the Soviet Union doesn't exist in this timeline as the Bolsheviks are crushed.
• Germany is now THE top power of Europe, and barring some unforeseen events (like their version of WWII where they lose) remains so today. And it's a lot bigger. It goes without saying that cities like Konigsberg, Danzig, Stettin, Breslau, Memel, Reichenberg etc. would remain as German cities.
• The United States today is a lot more linguistically diverse and more informed by Central European cultures, in large part because there wouldn't be a mass persecution of German culture in this timeline (this assumes the Central Powers win without the US joining the war). There would still naturally be assimilation to a degree, but not nearly to the same extent without it being so forced, and we'd see a lot more German speakers probably on par with Spanish. By this point, I'd expect for there to be cities in the US that are dominated by the German language (like Milwaukee and Cincinnati), and like Spanish, they'd have their own TV shows, books, magazines, music etc. catered specifically for them. Not to mention the other languages that were widely spoken through Middle America (like Polish, Hungarian, Dutch, Swedish etc.).
• The Ottoman Empire still exists and is the top power of the Middle East, after they discover their vast supply of oil. This also means that the Middle East is a much more consolidated region in terms of geopolitics.
• Israel doesn't exist.
• Poland doesn't exist, instead the Poles remain an ethnic diaspora throughout Europe and the Americas.
• Technology might be different, perhaps at a lower level, without things like World War II and the Cold War to speed up technological development. Though who's to say other conflicts don't arise to do the same?

Again, these are just some educated guesses because it's hard to say what 2024 looks like in this world. What do you guys think?

 

[Fulton 44]

A lot depends upon how (and whether) the four countries make a transition to a more democratic political system. Also, I wouldn't count the commies out. Russia would be weakened and demoralized and vulnerable to an insurrection. Germany would probably also expand its colonial empire somewhat. The US hegemony would be postponed or obviated. Colonialism might continue for a longer time as the world might divide itself into; 1. countries with colonial empires - UK, Germany, France, Portugal, Netherlands; 2. colonial peoples seeking to attain independence and sympathetic third world independent countries - Thailand, Iran, Ethiopia, Liberia; and 3. everyone else - USA, Russia, etc. - slowly becoming more sympathetic to the colonial peoples and also desiring parity in terms of trading with them.

 

[Lils <3]

• Colonialism/Imperialism still exists at least to some degree, though decolonization would still occur in a slower and more natural matter.

To expand upon this point I'd say, and I believe this is a commonly accepted idea, that World War One was the final blow to monarchism as the prominent ideology in Europe, after decades of republicanism on the rise, the war saw Germany and Austria, two nations with powerful monarchs, defeated, and republics created across the continent. If the central powers win the war, Finland, Poland and the Baltics are presumably taken over by the German imposed monarchies. I very much doubt this would cause a new monarchist era, but it would at least postpone the new republican era taking hold fully.
But, on the other hand, if republicanism does prevail, this makes the Central Powers victory even more unstable and hard to maintain. Its likely, the short term expansion of monarchism in Europe won't last with the Bolsheviks and other Republicans taking over Russia and republican thought still on the rise. Speaking of an unsustainable victory; the ottomans!

• The Ottoman Empire still exists and is the top power of the Middle East, after they discover their vast supply of oil. This also means that the Middle East is a much more consolidated region in terms of geopolitics.

I don't agree on this one at all. The Ottomans were already massively on the decline, they'd lost almost all of their European territory, they were decades behind technologically, and they'd suffered multiple uprisings and coups in the years leading up to WWI. Additionally, the Ottomans joining the Germans was mostly the result of Enver Pasha and his minority pro-German faction, many in government and out of it were leaning towards the Entente, while the Central Powers victory could lend legitimacy to Enver and the pro-Germans, it could just as easily lead to increasing hatred for the government.
Also, while winning the war offers chances for development, and the Ottomans were keen to join one side of the war because they thought it would give them stronger allies and a stronger position to develop, the collapse of the empire is likely assured by the First World War. I couldn't tell you how it would look, but I doubt the Ottomans would have any chance at holding most of their empire, let alone the middle east. While the victory might keep the caliphate in place, I can't see it salvaging the empire.

• Israel doesn't exist.

I mean, it really depends how the Ottomans collapse and what the Central Powers stance on the Jews is. While the Central Powers were extremely antisemitic and probably wouldn't be big fans of Zionism, Britain were also extremely antisemitic which (while overlooked) was one of the reasons Zionism was supported. Though, there's the chance to establish a Jewish Homeland in a different British colony or area in the world, which isn't necessarily a certainty, its an interesting chance to explore the ideology of Zionism, Imperialism, Anti-Semitism and Racism and how they intersect and oppose each other.

• Poland doesn't exist, instead the Poles remain an ethnic diaspora throughout Europe and the Americas.

Both the Entente and Central Powers promised the Poles a state, the Central Powers had even established a short lived and controversial Polish puppet kingdom. Poland would almost certainly exist, if the central powers changed their minds and annexed Poland or divided it, their victory would be even more unsustainable, especially considering the large polish population in the German Empire's eastern territories already.

Hope this helps :3

 

[Lils <3]

I wouldn't count the commies out

Totally agree, I think we can assume with a Central Powers victory, they likely aren't gonna take back the western lands (Ukraine, Finland, Poland Belarus, Baltics), but like with OTL, even if the Central Powers and Entente both funnel troops into Russia, they probably can't prevent the Bolsheviks taking over.

US hegemony would be postponed or obviated

Yup, agreed again, the US public were very anti-German during a lot of the war and even if they don't join the Entente, I'd imagine a lot of loans would end up going to the Entente. I can see a potential economic crisis during the end of the war if they do offer out large loans to the Entente like irl (even if they aren't as large). But, I wouldn't count the US out completely, they still have massive potential if they can manage to handle economic issues post war and take advantage of the Central Powers shaky new order in Europe.

 

[extraterrestris]

It really depends on the type of CP victory. Let's consider just two scenarios. There are more ways that CPs could have won that aren't manifestly dependent on ASB support, but for the sake of simplicity let's just consider two cases that are about as different as it gets.

There probably are parallel universes where the Schlieffen plan worked (against all odds) and France falls in 1914. Let's say Russia and Britain come to the negotiating table by no later than 1915. Russia only loses Congress Poland and Germany retains or recovers its pre-war African colonies plus French Equatorial Africa and the Belgian Congo. Germany is now a major colonial power and has a stronger self-interest in blocking decolonization. I wouldn't expect colonial empires to last for ever, but German South West Africa is likely to become an integral part of the German nation state as more German settlers move there. South West Africa may become the only territory in Subsaharan Africa with a white majority. If Germany plays its cards right, it may remain on top of the European pecking order well into the 21st century. On the other hand, Russia may well win the peace after losing the war. France probably gives up on Great Power aspirations after being clearly defeated for the second time in a row. A new round of general European war seems relatively unlikely, but serious security competition between Russia, Germany and Britain continues. Europe will probably be multipolar by 2024. Without WWII it seems likely that Libya would become an integral part of the Italian nation state, as ethnic Italians become the majority and oil is discovered. This might turn Italy into a petro-state whose prosperity is primarily dependent on oil demand in the early 21st century.

There probably are also parallel universes where Germany ditches the Schlieffen plan, takes a defensive position in the West and throws its weight against Russia. The Tsar is deposed in 1915 after the CP have managed to take all of Congress Poland and advance significantly into Ukraine. Two Russian republican governments fail to turn the situation around. A group of communists takes over, and the new Russian government has to surrender Ukraine to the Germans and Austrians in late 1916 as it now faces a civil war. In 1918 a newly consolidated authoritarian Russian National Republic denounces the peace treaty, which leads the Germans and Austro-Hungarians to resume the war. Moscow is occupied in a matter of months and all lands west of the Urals and north of the Caucasus fall into the German sphere of influence. The war in the West ends in a stalemate in 1919 or 1920. The US has remained neutral, and the military technology of the time so massively favors the defense over the offense that neither side was able to achieve a breakthrough. Germany has lost all colonies for good, which gives her an incentive to support decolonization. The status quo ante bellum is nominally restored in the West. Germany has lost much more people than in the first scenario and is much more traumatized. Ultimately, though, this scenario adds up to a stable Pax Germanica in a way the first doesn't. With Russia out of the equation, the odds would be heavily stacked against Britain, France (and Italy) if they were to ever challenge Germany again. Decolonization may well be accelerated compared with our timeline.

Nuclear weapons would still be developed as a consequence of geopolitical competition. They may be delayed by one or two, perhaps three, decades, but they wouldn't elude the murderous ingenuity of mankind for much longer than that. In the latter of the two scenarios described above, Germany would probably insist on a nuclear monopoly in Europe and may or may not succeed.

I am unsure what would happen with the Habsburg Empire long term. It might either disintegrate (like OTL Yugoslavia), or it might consolidate (like OTL Switzerland), or it might be propped up by the Germans as a vassal state.
If Austria-Hungary still splits, it almost goes without saying that Austria would join Germany. What happens with Bohemia-Moravia/Czechia? How would the border between Hungary and Romania be drawn? I am unsure.

Without Hitler, ethnonationalism would be less discredited in Europe. The immigration policies of Western and Central Europe in the first decades of the 21st century would presumably be more like OTL Japan's.

Civilian nuclear power is probably much more common than in our timeline, because the leftoid hippy Green Party political culture wouldn't flourish in a more culturally conservative Europe, if it emerges at all.

If the Ottoman Empire gets its act together its future could be very bright. It could potentially control all the oil and fossil gas deposits of the Arabian peninsula and Mesopotamia, and the Suez Canal, all at once. Persia/Iran, Egypt and the Middle East in general might be more industrialized and prosperous than in OTL. If the Ottoman Empire industrializes, other states in the region may follow the example.

European Jews would probably tend to assimilate despite antisemitism lurking around. There would also, obviously, be many more Jews in Europe in 2024 than in OTL. Israel probably doesn't exist ITTL.

Poland will almost certainly exist, though not necessarily as a fully sovereign state. Congress Poland might be placed under German suzerainty, or merged with Galicia and integrated into the Habsburg Empire.

Bulgaria would annex (North) Macedonia after the war and retain the territory up to the present day.

Romania is a bit of a wild card. It's fate will heavily depend on whether it joins the CP during the war, joins the Entente or remains continuously neutral.

It's an open question what the fates of nations like China, Japan, Korea and Vietnam would be. Any of these nations could do much better than OTL.

The US wouldn't be a far cry from what it is in our timeline because it would still have massive geographic, demographic and economic advantages.

 

[Lalli]

• Colonialism/Imperialism still exists at least to some degree, though decolonization would still occur in a slower and more natural matter.

Decolonisation would still occur altough indeed in slower speed and not in such degree as in OTL. And decolonisation process might be too more violent since there is not as much motivation to just let colonies go peacefully like in OTL.

• Communism as an ideology only remains a theory, because the Soviet Union doesn't exist in this timeline as the Bolsheviks are crushed.

I am not 100 % sure that commies would are crushed on Russian Civil War. Possible but not certain. But even if they win, communism will be much weaker ideology and Soviets probably won't care about such world or even continental domination as in OTL. They couldn't even succeed and they know that very well.

• Germany is now THE top power of Europe, and barring some unforeseen events (like their version of WWII where they lose) remains so today. And it's a lot bigger. It goes without saying that cities like Konigsberg, Danzig, Stettin, Breslau, Memel, Reichenberg etc. would remain as German cities.

Germany indeed would be top dog of Europe. And one of most powerful nations in the world.

• The United States today is a lot more linguistically diverse and more informed by Central European cultures, in large part because there wouldn't be a mass persecution of German culture in this timeline (this assumes the Central Powers win without the US joining the war). There would still naturally be assimilation to a degree, but not nearly to the same extent without it being so forced, and we'd see a lot more German speakers probably on par with Spanish. By this point, I'd expect for there to be cities in the US that are dominated by the German language (like Milwaukee and Cincinnati), and like Spanish, they'd have their own TV shows, books, magazines, music etc. catered specifically for them. Not to mention the other languages that were widely spoken through Middle America (like Polish, Hungarian, Dutch, Swedish etc.).

Agree.

• The Ottoman Empire still exists and is the top power of the Middle East, after they discover their vast supply of oil. This also means that the Middle East is a much more consolidated region in terms of geopolitics.

Agree.

• Israel doesn't exist.

Agree.

• Poland doesn't exist, instead the Poles remain an ethnic diaspora throughout Europe and the Americas.

Completely disagree here. Germany was already establishing Kingdom of Poland as puppet state. There just wouldn't be any other options.

• Technology might be different, perhaps at a lower level, without things like World War II and the Cold War to speed up technological development. Though who's to say other conflicts don't arise to do the same?

It is myth that wars would speed up technological development. Yes, without WW2 some technologies would evolve slower and for example nuclear weapons would are invented later. But generally technological level would be about same or even more advanced since not used so much energy to wars and some potential inventors are not killed on wars.

My takes:

Germany is dominant power of Europe and perhaps even global power depending how WW1 will end and how much colonies it can recover. Germany pretty certainly can't get Asian/Pacific colonies back but Africa is another thing. Germany would be economic, political, military and scientic powerhouse. It would too has massive alliance system in Europe and perhaps there is even equalement of European Union but even more German-centric.

Austria-Hungary would reform itself as Danube Federation and it would be local great power but clearly on shadow of Germany. It would be politically like Belgium in steroids. Bosnia probably would be like Northern Ireland and probably there would be Bosnian Troubles at some point.

Russia is very intresting case and things could go to many direction depending already who would win Russian Civil War.

France would had been bittered many years but probably it will improve relationships with Central Powers eventually. It would be still pretty strong nation and has more colonies than in OTL.

Italy would probably experience some extremism ideology.

Europe not experience WW2 so it too would mean generally more prosperous Europe and there would be higher population. Without Holocaust there is more Jews and Jewish community would be strongly part of German society.

Eastern Europe would have much happier 20th century.

Since no WW2 societies around the world (speciality in Europe and North America) would remain more conservative regarding rights of women (altough many countries still would enact female suffrage). Since no horrors of Holocaust antisemitism/racism would are bit more common.

USA would remain as isolationist power much longer and not become such global power. In 2024 it is still mainly intrested about Americas and not try play world police. Without WW2 Civil Rights Movement would be delayed with couple decades and probably Civil Rights Act wouldn't be around earlier than in 1980's.

Ottoman Empire would be still around and it would be strong power in Middle East.

Iran would probably be still monarchy. And even if it becomes republic it probably wouldn't be theocracy like in OTL.

No Israel.

There wouldn't be too Saudi Arabia. Ottomans not take Arabian peninsula but Rashidi dynasty would conquer most of the peninsula and control that in 2024.

Decolonisation would still happen but not as early and European powers would retain more colonies than in OTL. Decolonisation would be too messier process than in OTL.

 

[extraterrestris]

Would there still be one or several moon landings in a CP victory timeline?

 

[extraterrestris]

One thing that, I think, would still happen in a CP victory world is European birthrates going below replacement level in the late 20th century.

 

[Reflection]

Would there be a global German identity comparable to the Latin identity we have today?

I touched on this in the OP, but you know how we have Latin music genres, TV, movies and overall culture that heavily share with each other from Spain and Portugal throughout Latin America (plus the Spanish parts of the US)? I wonder if that sort of thing would happen with Germany, Austria-Hungary, the German diaspora in the Americas (United States, Canada, Brazil, Argentina etc.), Australia and Africa?

WWI and then WWII with the Nazis did a lot to hurt German pride in a way that it's never fully recovered from. But in such a timeline, that wouldn't be the case. I just wonder if we'd see things like German and Austro-Hungarian pop stars selling out arenas in the Americas, and "Deutschamerikaner" acts touring Europe to massive crowds too, and it being a whole scene that exists throughout the world, is a massive juggernaut of it's own, and sometimes crosses over to the mainstream like Latin does.

It's an interesting thought for sure.

 

[Lalli]

Would there still be one or several moon landings in a CP victory timeline?

Probably several. But since there hardly is not space race first moon landing would happen some years later. In other hand by 2024 there might had been already manned Mars flight. Probably Germany would be first who sends human to Moon.

One thing that, I think, would still happen in a CP victory world is European birthrates going below replacement level in the late 20th century.

Might be but it probably wouldn't be as sharp as in OTL since without WW2 more of young people and children would are alive in 1940's.

 

[Politibrit]

Again, these are just some educated guesses because it's hard to say what 2024 looks like in this world. What do you guys think?

I think that more would happen between a CP victory and now to shake up the post-war settlement. Germany probably becomes extremely powerful for the next few decades, but it would still have a million different problems to contend with. There is the potential for another war with former Entente countries, and it would have acquired a large SoI in Europe over which to exert it's authority, plus the ramifications of a possible collapse of A-H and/or the Ottoman Empire. Like any superpower, it'd probably overextend itself at some point. Barring defeat in a second war, I think it would almost certainly be a more powerful country than today, but probably well past it's peak.

I wouldn't rule out some of the states created after OTL WW1 eventually come in to existence ITTL too, including Poland. I'd agree that Israel is much less likely to exist, but I wouldn't rule anything out.

I could still see Communism springing up somewhere. In fact, you could argue it would have done better in a later German victory scenario. It would probably be very different from the Marxist-Leninism that was invented by the SU though.

I think the world would be done by colonialism by this point, as European countries would still decline relative to the rest of the world, probably at an even faster pace than OTL for countries like France.

 

[THE KINGFISH]

One thing that, I think, would still happen in a CP victory world is European birthrates going below replacement level in the late 20th century.

Might be but it probably wouldn't be as sharp as in OTL since without WW2 more of young people and children would are alive in 1940's.

That would depend on if European countries stay more religious and more importantly, have more flexible family structures than the nuclear family.

 

[THE KINGFISH]

Would there be a global German identity comparable to the Latin identity we have today?

I touched on this in the OP, but you know how we have Latin music genres, TV, movies and overall culture that heavily share with each other from Spain and Portugal throughout Latin America (plus the Spanish parts of the US)? I wonder if that sort of thing would happen with Germany, Austria-Hungary, the German diaspora in the Americas (United States, Canada, Brazil, Argentina etc.), Australia and Africa?

WWI and then WWII with the Nazis did a lot to hurt German pride in a way that it's never fully recovered from. But in such a timeline, that wouldn't be the case. I just wonder if we'd see things like German and Austro-Hungarian pop stars selling out arenas in the Americas, and "Deutschamerikaner" acts touring Europe to massive crowds too, and it being a whole scene that exists throughout the world, is a massive juggernaut of it's own, and sometimes crosses over to the mainstream like Latin does.

It's an interesting thought for sure.

You also have the potential German African colonies (provided they still don’t lose them, but that might involve an early CP victory) like a German Congo, and if decolonization by some miracle is less chaotic than OTL, they could become major economic and cultural players in the German speaking world (IOTL Kinshasa has more French speakers than Paris, perhaps under Imperial Germany it’s more German instead). Even if their living standards are equivalent to OTL’s average Latin American country.

 

[Lils <3]

I wonder if that sort of thing would happen with Germany, Austria-Hungary, the German diaspora in the Americas

Considering existing distaste for Germans in the USA during the early war, and with the addition of a victorious Germany, and likely financial crisis, caused by said victorious Germany, I can't see anything good happening for the German diaspora in the United States. South America, although I'm not really educated on the topic, would be pretty divided, I'd imagine, with the former Entente ally Brazil likely facing various threats from German leaning nations on its borders, also probably not lending any favour to German diaspora there.

 

[Flavius Iulius Maiorianus]

Funnily enough, I just made a thread explaining my thoughts here:

A (late) Central Powers Victory: Some Musings

For me, the first world war is more interesting than the second. Now, don't get me wrong; WWII is still utterly fascinating. I especially love the technology, from the A-Bomb to the B-29 to the FG-42 and plenty more. But when reading about WWII, I always felt like the Axis were on borrowed time...

www.alternatehistory.com

 

[Hugh Third of Five]

Communism as an ideology only remains a theory, because the Soviet Union doesn't exist in this timeline as the Bolsheviks are crushed.

Why would a Central Powers victory butterfly away the Bolshevik rise to power? The Germans supported the Bolsheviks during the Russian civil war. The Soviets/Bolsheviks would probably have less territory, particularly in the West, but that doesn't mean the Whites would win the Russian civil war.

Poland doesn't exist, instead the Poles remain an ethnic diaspora throughout Europe and the Americas.

Poland definitely wouldn't get the parts of Prussia with large populations of ethnic Poles and they might not get the predominantly Polish parts of Austria-Hungary either, but the Polish-speaking parts of the Russian Empire would become the Kingdom of Poland. That was part of German war plans.

Considering existing distaste for Germans in the USA during the early war, and with the addition of a victorious Germany, and likely financial crisis, caused by said victorious Germany, I can't see anything good happening for the German diaspora in the United States. South America, although I'm not really educated on the topic, would be pretty divided, I'd imagine, with the former Entente ally Brazil likely facing various threats from German leaning nations on its borders, also probably not lending any favour to German diaspora there.

The USA probably would not have entered the war to begin with.

 

[Lils <3]

The USA probably would not have entered the war to begin with.

my apologies for any confusion, by "early war" I was referring to WW1 in general, not the early days of US entry. It was a reference to pre-existing discrimination directed towards German immigrants. Because of increased German immigration to the US in the 19th century there was a high level of bigotry directed towards them, which only got worse during WW1. Considering loans to the Entente which would go unpaid, which I would think would likely still exist even if the US stayed out of the war, I can only assume anti-german sentiment would only increase.

 

[Hugh Third of Five]

my apologies for any confusion, by "early war" I was referring to WW1 in general, not the early days of US entry. It was a reference to pre-existing discrimination directed towards German immigrants. Because of increased German immigration to the US in the 19th century there was a high level of bigotry directed towards them, which only got worse during WW1. Considering loans to the Entente which would go unpaid, which I would think would likely still exist even if the US stayed out of the war, I can only assume anti-german sentiment would only increase.

Why are you assuming that there would be debts in the first place, or that bankers would just eat the cost, when they were backed by collateral, or that it would lead to widespread hate crimes against German Americans. Also at this point in history, the German language wasn't limited to German immigrants. It was widely-spoken as a first language by German-Americans and as a second language among much of the rest of the population. The USA had developed its own regional dialects of German.

 

[Lils <3]

widespread hate crimes against German Americans

I don't suppose the backlash would be expressed as violent attacks, though, I do believe these would happen in some rare circumstances (lynching of German immigrant Robert Prager for example), I'd imagine it would mostly be expressed through the stigmatisation of the German language, erasure of German language in public (street signs, establishment names, etc) as well as increased prejudice against German-American communities.

It was widely-spoken as a first language by German-Americans

Its important to note, a significant number of German-Americans were immigrants from the 19th century, not just original German colonists. Additionally racist white Anglo Americans were never known for their intensive care for the amount of time another race had resided on the continent (natives).

The USA had developed its own regional dialects of German.

That's true, but I fail to really see how the long term settlement of German communities would do much to protect them from 'patriotic', xenophobic and racist targeting. While being entrenched in their position in society would prevent any full scale removal of German-American communities, it would do nothing to prevent racism existing.

Finally, I'd note, the question my post was responding too was suggesting that German-Americans might enter a new golden age, a claim I was pushing back on. The xenophobic anti-german sentiment I believe would manifest in a central powers victory America are very much similar to the ones that did occur in OTL as a result of wartime fervour and general xenophobia, wartime fervour here being usurped by the defeat of American allies in Europe and the economic consequences of American banks offering massive loans to an alliance that was just defeated and is likely now subject to economic ruin and have their own reparations to pay. Though, your point on the economy is likely far more informed than mine so I'll cede that point to you, I'm no economist and there's little worth in pretending I am.
Plus, as a sidenote, I would imagine, as a result of the central powers victory in WW1, America would see an influx of immigrants from Europe, and, while of course those immigrants would mostly not be German, the Germans may be chosen as scapegoats by racist groups seeking to incite anti-immigrant hatred, aiming to counteract increased numbers of immigrants.

 

[1962strat]

That's true, but I fail to really see how the long term settlement of German communities would do much to protect them from 'patriotic', xenophobic and racist targeting. While being entrenched in their position in society would prevent any full scale removal of German-American communities, it would do nothing to prevent racism existing.

Germans are still WASPs, so they would probably be low in the list of priorities for bigots. German populations were also very concentrated in some areas, so targeting them at a low level, without the additional fervour of war, would be very hard. And given there were a shitton of them, politicians would avoid going against them more than necessary, if only cause they can move the needle electorally.