Again, if Charles is instead killed at Tagliacozzo, the future pope loses much of his leverage over Conradin and the Hohenstaufen, but since Swabian is no longer in Conradin's possession and the Imperial throne is currently vacant, Conradin doesn't represent as much of a threat to Rome as his grandfather had. There would be hard feelings, but I think in this scenario, a peace can be made with the promise that all sides swear an oath to go on crusade, and Conradin can marry a Capetian bride. Conradin probably must agree that Swabia is no longer a Hohenstaufen possession in exchange for being recognized as the true and rightful King of Sicily.
Victorious Conradin and the Duchy of Swabia
- Thread starter FesteringSpore
- Start date
He had two— OTL's Charles II and a younger son Philip, as well as a third son who had died in 1265. Both sons likely go back to France if Charles d'Anjou is killed in battle
Who exactly was Swabia pawned off to again? The dissolution of Swabia seemed more a case of local nobles not giving a damn about a random person taking over than the legalities, so if Conradin’s still alive, they likely still follow him around than bothering about the technicality that the duchy was pawned off.
I'm also very curious what this forum thinks because despite all my research, the fate of Swabia in a victorious Conradin scenario is weirdly murky. I believe Runciman mentions that the castles pawned off to fund his expedition were mostly collateral to the various adventurers he recruited to go all the way south. And so when he died the sort of mess and lack of single authority in the region is partially what allowed Rudolph of Habsburg to speak up without a direct superior. FWIW, I think a successful Conradin would downplay his German-ness and holdings there. What I imagine, is a King of Sicily, Jerusalem, Cyprus etc. and "Duke" of Swabia in the same way up until George III, they were "Kings of France". He may send his favorite Frederick of Baden to be his envoy/viceroy in Germany but the Duchy of Swabia will be far more autonomous. Maybe itll develop a system closer to that of the Swiss?
To continue answering the questions initially posed, a successful Conradin might preclude a Battle on the Marchfield. Rudolph came to power both because he had the connections and money (some of which earned from the pawning off of Swabia) but also because he was a relative nobody who wouldn't threaten Papal nor various princely interests. A successful Conradin, no matter what happens in Rome is going to be kept on a short leash, and a stronger counterweight in the HRE might be seen as a good stopgap to a Germanically ambitious Conradin even if he swears up and down not to do so. Does anyone know what local German noble would be strong enough, but not related to the Hohenstaufens that would be such a candidate? Or would Ottokar even be in the running then since he was clearly a rising power?
From what I've read, Rudolf pre-1268 had already acquired a vast amount of estates and wealth for himself. Is it possible that Rudolf could still make a play for the Empire even with Conradin alive and ruling from Sicily?
Rechecking notes and books you're correct! I don't know how enterprising Rudolf would be, especially if his nominal liege is still Duke of Swabia if only in name. How much credence do we want to give the bonds of loyalty and all? Plus, with a Conradin in Sicily, I think hackles would be too raised concerning his previous loyalty to Frederick II/Conrad IV. He's still a rich and powerful lord so he could definitely throw some weight around. Do you think the Pope would want a strong Emperor to stave off a potential Staufer comeback? Is Ottokar going to be a good choice or too unwieldy and need his own ambition checked? Perhaps the Cornwalls manage to retain the German throne, rich and unburdened with deep connections to the mess of German loyalties. Though what would a Cornwall dynasty in Germany look like? These aren't rhetorical btw I really wanna know what the knock-on effects of a Conradin victory would be!
Conradin was married by proxy to Sophie of Landsberg. Though a Hungarian princess might be interesting as with Hungarian assistance, he could claim the duchies of Austria and Styria on the grounds that Frederick II had promised them to Conradins cousins, the sons of Henry VII.
At least parts of it had been pawned off to Conradins uncle Louis II of Bavaria after which he hit the road back to Germany and left his nephew to his fate. But why would one expect better of someone who had his wife as well as 2 of her maids executed on the suspicion of infidelity which turned out not to be true.
Sophie of Landsberg is in single digits though, but a Hungarian Princess like Elizabeth of Hungary is closer to childbearing age.
There's also some debate as to whether Sophie and Conradin were actually married by proxy or betrothed, plus I imagine any Pope would be happy to annul his marriage to a German princess if it means keeping the Hohenstaufens out of German politics. A Hungarian bride seems odd considering it was Charles who arranged the match, I don't see why Conradin would follow his usurper's path. A Capetian bride would be massive, though would also bind him closer to the man who he just won a battle against. Is there a local family that would signal his willingness to stay put so to speak?
On the one hand, marrying a Hungarian princess (maybe Mary, Charles II's OTL wife) might aid him in enforcing the claims of his friend, Frederick Margrave of Baden, to the Duchy of Austria, and like Charles II get him a claim on the Hungarian throne. On the other, marrying a Capetian princess (possibly Blanche, since Margaret was promised to Henry IV of Brabant since 1257. Then again, we don't know when Blanche was betrothed to Ferdinand de la Cerda) might keep both the Pope and a surviving Charles of Anjou off his back.
Or maybe a third option could be Berengaria or Beatrice of Castile, since Peter III of Aragon is married to Manfred's daughter, Constance, and the girls' uncle, Prince Henry 'the Senator' of Castile, had defected to Conradin's side from Charles of Anjou.
Or maybe a third option could be Berengaria or Beatrice of Castile, since Peter III of Aragon is married to Manfred's daughter, Constance, and the girls' uncle, Prince Henry 'the Senator' of Castile, had defected to Conradin's side from Charles of Anjou.
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I like this idea a fair amount, though in my digging for my own TL, I cannot for the life of me find when she was betrothed to Ferdinand. Though would Louis IX, THE Saint Louis mind you, be willing to marry his daughter to the grandson of Frederick II the Antichrist/thrice excommunicated?
I think Matilda of Habsburg is the better choice for him...since she can provide children soon and he secures the support of the Habsburgs.
Well, he did recognise Conradin as the legitimate King of Sicily and advised his brother not to take the Pope's offer.
Wikipedia says that Prince Louis and Berengaria were betrothed in 1255, before Ferdinand de la Cerda was born and she was heir presumptive of Castile, and they remained betrothed until Louis's death in 1259.
There's also the matter of what to do with Charles of Anjou. Does he die in or just after Tagliacozzo? Does he escape back to Anjou? Is he captured? If he's captured, what does Conradin do with him? Release? Ransom? Execute? Charles' pride and ambition wouldn't have let him just accept this loss, but killing him would have made Conradin more enemies.
Perhaps a compromise would be for Conradin to marry Charles' daughter Beatrice? IOTL she married Latin Emperor Philip of Courtenay, whom she had been betrothed to under the terms of the Treaty of Viterbo in 1267. If Conradin wants to take over or make up for that treaty himself, he could substitute Beatrice of Anjou for his cousin, Beatrice, daughter of Manfred.
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