USS Yorktown not abandoned, version 3.0

[Naval Aviation Fan]

Haven't revisited this in some time, even though I have known for some time about the one key mistake that actually caused the USS Yorktown to have been mistakenly abandoned during the battle of Midway, on June 4th, 1942.

Here are links to the first two threads, so folks can follow the prior discussions, and then comment on their thoughts in this new, and third thread. DO NOT post replies in either of the older threads, please.

First thread's poll and OP.

and second threads poll and OP.

Anyway, I'm starting to get tired, and need to rest before getting into this properly.

 

[Sekhmet_D]

My unpopular opinion is that even if the I-168 didn't torpedo Yorktown, the damage inflicted by Hiryu was sufficient for her to be declared a constructive total loss and not worth rebuilding even after being towed back to the States.

 

[Pangur]

I think it would come down to the work,materials and effort to repair v spending that on getting an Essex carrier finished

 

[Naval Aviation Fan]

My unpopular opinion is that even if the I-168 didn't torpedo Yorktown, the damage inflicted by Hiryu was sufficient for her to be declared a constructive total loss and not worth rebuilding even after being towed back to the States.

My own thoughts are that, she will be getting under way, on her own power, in the hours of darkness June 4/5, and thus not need a tow after getting her centerline and starboard boiler rooms back in operation. As we now know, those four boiler rooms were not flooded when she was being abandoned OTL, and here, she won't be abandoned, but just evacuated of all non-essential personnel, so the damage control parties can get her back in operation asap.

The damage she suffered was not anywhere near as bad as had been thought, afterall, and with electrical power not being used to kill her own crew by a stupid decision not being remade here, she never loses the ability to stop the flooding, and if additional help from a destroyer is to be had, can her list be even more rapidly reduced, even before her main power is restored?

 

[Naval Aviation Fan]

I think it would come down to the work,materials and effort to repair v spending that on getting an Essex carrier finished

I think the choice will not be so severe as all that, nor the repairs taking all that long, my guess is ~3 months if they are in a hurry, so early/mid September RTD.

 

[Pangur]

I think the choice will not be so severe as all that, nor the repairs taking all that long, my guess is ~3 months if they are in a hurry, so early/mid September RTD.

Did a google on yards that produced Essex carriers, all seem to be east coast, was there yards on the west coast that could be used?

 

[Naval Aviation Fan]

Did a google on yards that produced Essex carriers, all seem to be east coast, was there yards on the west coast that could be used?

Yes. Remember USS Saratoga was repaired on the west coast, and she is an even bigger hull than a Yorktown class.

 

[CT7834]

My unpopular opinion is that even if the I-168 didn't torpedo Yorktown, the damage inflicted by Hiryu was sufficient for her to be declared a constructive total loss and not worth rebuilding even after being towed back to the States.

Pearl Harbor had shown that threshold was extremely high. Outside of Arizona being blown to pieces and Oklahoma and Utah capsizing. Every other ship was back in service. Including the Destroyers Cassin and Downes and they were both blown to pieces and had to be rebuilt from the keel up. I have no doubt the same would be applied to Yorktown.

Yorktown being ready again by the start of 43 is a good thing for the US Navy. As even though Essex had been commissioned on New Year’s Eve 1942. She still needs months of working up. Assuming Guadalcanal still plays out the same way. The only carriers the US would have in theatre at the time are USS Torpedo Magnet (Saratoga) and USS 110% done (Enterprise) available. With Enterprise being in a similar material condition as Yorktown prior to Midway. Except being in that state for 2 months, instead of 2 days.

I think it would come down to the work,materials and effort to repair v spending that on getting an Essex carrier finished

Put it like this. During World War 2, CNO Admiral King had approved for Ranger to undergo a massive refit. This consisted of: Deck Edge Elevators, flight deck strengthening, additional Bofors, torpedo blisters and flight deck catapults. The Bureau of Ships persuaded King not to go through with it. Arguing that the resources could be used on the Essex-Class. This made sense as Ranger was primarily a training carrier and when she did see combat it was in the Atlantic Theatre.

That argument won’t entirely work on Yorktown. She may not have been as big as an Essex-Class. But as Enterprise had proven, the refits and a veteran crew prove she was more than capable of keeping up with one. Even later in the war, she will join Enterprise as a night carrier. Which will be incredibly useful against Kamikazes. Also, the Essex spam didn’t really kick in till the middle of 1944. So her being ready for combat at the start of 1943 would be a priority for the US Navy.

My own thoughts are that, she will be getting under way, on her own power, in the hours of darkness June 4/5, and thus not need a tow after getting her centerline and starboard boiler rooms back in operation. As we now know, those four boiler rooms were not flooded when she was being abandoned OTL, and here, she won't be abandoned, but just evacuated of all non-essential personnel, so the damage control parties can get her back in operation asap.

The damage she suffered was not anywhere near as bad as had been thought, afterall, and with electrical power not being used to kill her own crew by a stupid decision not being remade here, she never loses the ability to stop the flooding, and if additional help from a destroyer is to be had, can her list be even more rapidly reduced, even before her main power is restored?

Given how close and those torpedoes are when they hit and where in the hull she was hit. Yorktown’s boiler rooms are knocked out. As shown by the image I provided. Also, Yorktown like every other steamship of that era creates electricity by generators powered from her boilers. Without the boilers she has no primary power.

Saying that at point 225 on the cutaway. The Yorktowns are fitted with a diesel generator room. Whether or not it can run the pumps or not. I have no idea. Saying that though, while Captain Buckmaster was hasty in his decision to abandon ship. At the time, his ship had been torpedo, the ship is jammed in a hard turn and the rudder isn’t straightened and he has lost all power, while taking a heavy list. Also, Dr Clarke mentioned in his recent video on Illustrious. Carriers are top heavy. So any attempt at pumping or counter flooding will need to be done as soon as possible. But without primary or auxiliary power. Buckmaster can’t do that. Honestly it’s a testament to her design (and why I disagree with Drachinifel’s opinion that Ark Royal was the best treaty carrier). That she didn’t capsized on the night of 4-5 June.

I think the choice will not be so severe as all that, nor the repairs taking all that long, my guess is ~3 months if they are in a hurry, so early/mid September RTD.

Yeah for that kind of turn around. Either Hornet’s Air Group doesn’t derp off on its own mission. Or Stephen L Moore’s book “Pacific Payback” is anything to go by. Max Leslie being told by Fletcher, Buckmaster or LTCDR Oscar Pederson that his strike package would be down a squadron. Because that book, Craig L Symonds book on Midway and I think Shattered Sword. All state that Hiryu was spotted by the Dauntlesses at 1025. But she was attacked by VT-3. Leslie thought that VS-5 would follow behind him and attack Hiryu. But no one told him that VS-5 was returning to the carrier. He only realised his mistake just as he was beginning his dive on Soryu. Either way, Hiryu needs to be destroyed or disabled along with Akagi, Kaga and Soryu for Yorktown to be ready in September or October 1942.

Did a google on yards that produced Essex carriers, all seem to be east coast, was there yards on the west coast that could be used?

Does Puget Sound and Mare Island not ring a bell.

 

[CT7834]

Here’s a rough outline of my own idea on how Yorktown survive. Primarily based on the Bonges and Torres Article Jon Parshall mentioned in his collab with Drachinifel. Keep in mind this is a work in progress. From what I understand it was a combination of cloud formations and the dispersion of the Kido Butai that lead to the PBYs only spotting 2 carriers at a time.


Essentially the PBYs from Midway spot Akagi, Kaga, Soryu and Hiryu at the same time (so 4 instead of 2). Enty and Hornet get their strike off. Without broken aircraft on Enty’s part (Craig L Symond’s book) or flight to nowhere. They show up at 0925 and have to fight their way through the CAP but eventually VB-6 and VS-6 knock out Akagi and Hiryu. VB-8 and VS-8 knock out Kaga and Soryu. VT-6 and VT-8 do their torpedo runs but one detonates on Kaga. The strike fights their way out but the Kido Butai is finished. A reserve strike from Yorktown gangs up on Haruna causing moderate damage to her. Later in the afternoon a follow up strike damages Kirishima, Tone and Chikuma. Destroying any hope for a night battle. Fletcher withdraws TF16 and 17 just after the sun goes down.

5 June, scouts find Mogami and Mikuma having been damaged in a collision the previous night. Yorktown, Enterprise and Hornet launch a massive strike that finds the two cruisers and sink Mikuma and Mogami (extra Dauntlesses from Yorktown did the trick).

6 June further scouting efforts to the south and west fail to find anything as Yamamoto had realised the battle was lost and ordered the surface fleet withdrawn. Though as a final act of spite. He ordered the Submarine fleet to remain in the area to sink any American carriers.

7 June further scouting confirms that the IJN has withdrawn from the area. Fletcher orders TF16 and TF17 withdrawn East to refuel and avoid coming into contact with Japanese air patrols from Wake Island

8 June. Saratoga and TF11 arrives in the area with not only a new air group. But replacement aircraft for Yorktown, Enterprise and Hornet. 25 Dauntlesses, 5 Devastators and 10 Avengers are transferred.

9 June. Fletcher orders the carriers to turn around and return to Pearl. Although confident that they have won. He and Spruance agree that the IJN may have one last trick up their sleeves and that maybe submarines. Throughout the journey the 4 carriers launch anti submarine patrols.

11 June. By luck Submarine I-168 spots the 4 carriers from the north east a few miles away. Remembering Admiral Yamamoto’s orders to wipe out the US Carriers he begins closing underwater to launch a Torpedo attack. SBDs and the Devastators doing ASW patrols notice an odd shadow from the water and check it and spot the sub and inform Fletcher. He dispatches Hammann, Anderson and Gwin to investigate. Where they soon joined by Atlanta, Phelps, Benham and Maury from Task Force 16. I-168 is picked up by sonar and is depth charged. Eventually being sunk by a charge from Hammann. All ships return to TF16 and 17.

12 June. All four carriers return to Pearl Harbour. Nimitz congratulates Fletcher and Spruance for the victory. Similar congratulations are sent from Washington but lean more heavily towards Spruance. Mainly because King was still furious with Fletcher with the loss of Lexington at Coral Sea.

22 June. Yorktown and destroyers Hammann, Anderson, Hughes and Mustin leave Pearl Harbour for Puget Sound. Where Yorktown will be repaired and refurbished. Admirals King and Nimitz have ordered it to be number 1 priority. Enterprise and Hornet remain in Pearl Harbour for rest and refit before heading down to Fiji with Saratoga and Wasp (she was already in Panama during the battle) for Operation Watchtower.

 

[Pangur]

Seems that the Yorktown could have been repaired n returned to service which at a guess just leaves getting it to a capable shipyard

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

If Yorktown survives and returns to service at or before the end of 1942 would Victorious be sent to the Pacific? And of she wasn't what would the RN do with her?

 

[Naval Aviation Fan]

Given how close and those torpedoes are when they hit and where in the hull she was hit. Yorktown’s boiler rooms are knocked out. As shown by the image I provided. Also, Yorktown like every other steamship of that era creates electricity by generators powered from her boilers. Without the boilers she has no primary power.

True, the primary power is out, but remember that the POD here is that the backup diesel generator is not tied into the power grid by default (standard operating procedure), and this leads to no Yorktown crewmen being electrocuted when power is supplied to the flooded compartments, and this in turn leads to USS Yorktown still being able to have power, so stopping the flooding and damage control is still a possibility.

Saying that at point 225 on the cutaway. The Yorktowns are fitted with a diesel generator room. Whether or not it can run the pumps or not. I have no idea.

I also do not know if the main pumps are usable without mechanical power, or if their electrical power lines were compromised by the flooding, but in OTL, the DD provided portable pumps on the 6th, so in this situation, those pumps would be in use on the 4th, and the damage control parties would be getting the 4 boiler rooms on the centerline and starboard side back in operation, so I cannot see Yorktown not getting steam up within 24 hours at the latest, so say not later than 1800 hours on the 5th, and she steams away under cover of darkness, so when I-168 comes calling on the 6th, she doesn't catch a glimpse.

Saying that though, while Captain Buckmaster was hasty in his decision to abandon ship.

If Yorktown had not had working power, he would have made the same decision, but with the diesel generator room left isolated from the carriers power grid by default, when the flooding started, the generator room wouldn't have been running high voltage through the flooded compartments, and until they got a damage report, they wouldn't throw the switch until they knew they wouldn't do frying their own crew.

At the time, his ship had been torpedoed, the ship is jammed in a hard turn and the rudder isn’t straightened and he has lost all power, while taking a heavy list.

I would agree, except that in this alt situation, the chief engineer is going to be able to report that they still have power generation capabilities, and need to access where they can route the power through and where they have to wait to make repairs, and the chief will be asking for as many portable pumps as he can get, and as soon as possible, while the rest of the crew evacuates.

Also, Dr Clarke mentioned in his recent video on Illustrious. Carriers are too heavy. So any attempt at pumping or counter flooding will need to be done as soon as possible. But without primary or auxiliary power. Buckmaster can’t do that. Honestly it’s a testament to her design (and why I disagree with Drachinifel’s opinion that Ark Royal was the best treaty carrier). That she didn’t capsized on the night of 4-5 June.

I wonder how long it will take to get things under control. With hindsight, we know USS Yorktown did not if fact suffer fatal damage from the pair of air attacks she suffered historically, so if the SOP had had the diesel generators (correctly and prudently) isolated by default, this whole sorry situation wouldn't have taken place.

Yeah for that kind of turn around, either Hiryu needs to be destroyed or disabled along with Akagi, Kaga and Soryu for Yorktown to be ready in September or October 1942.

I have to disagree. In order to be 'ready' she needs work, yes, but ready is not necessarily fully repaired and given a proper refit and upgraded, but just fixed up good enough to be able to fight.

Keep in mind that only 2 of Yorktown's 6 main boiler rooms were flooded on the 4th, so if the backup diesel generator isn't busily emulating an electric chair, it will be known that the ship had a fighting chance to stop the flooding, correct the list, and get the 4 other boiler rooms relit.

Just for the sake of argument, say patching up holes takes 12 hours, and then relighting the boilers and getting steam up takes another 12 hours, so the ship can get underway by 1800 hours on the 5th. Even if she could only make 12 kts, in the 12 hours before morning, she is still 144 nautical miles away when I-168 gets to her last reported position, and that is not even looking at the list being completely corrected by being able to pump out all the water, or her speed being able to be improved when that is done, so...

 

[Naval Aviation Fan]

Seems that the Yorktown could have been repaired n returned to service which at a guess just leaves getting it to a capable shipyard

PH would work for the initial work I would think, and then it depends on whether Nimitz thinks he can spare her for an extended period on the west coast, or has to press her back into service as is, again.

 

[NHBL]

IMVHO, if she gets home, she won't be considered a constructive total loss. It seems to me that the navy was perhaps overly reluctant to do so--anyone else would probably write off West Virginia, Cassin, and Downes, and possibly California. (Salvaging Oklahoma was considered, though it also makes sense to clear the spot and salvage things like the guns. I don't know when the decision was made to scrap her, though in the event, she chose the Pacific rather than the scrapper's torch.)

 

[CT7834]

True, the primary power is out, but remember that the POD here is that the backup diesel generator is not tied into the power grid by default (standard operating procedure), and this leads to no Yorktown crewmen being electrocuted when power is supplied to the flooded compartments, and this in turn leads to USS Yorktown still being able to have power, so stopping the flooding and damage control is still a possibility.

I have no idea whether its the case. As the Yorktowns were supposed to have auxiliary systems for this kind of scenario. Also, what source are you using for Crewman being electrocuted? As a flood should trigger the circuit breakers.

I also do not know if the main pumps are usable without mechanical power, or if their electrical power lines were compromised by the flooding, but in OTL, the DD provided portable pumps on the 6th, so in this situation, those pumps would be in use on the 4th, and the damage control parties would be getting the 4 boiler rooms on the centerline and starboard side back in operation, so I cannot see Yorktown not getting steam up within 24 hours at the latest, so say not later than 1800 hours on the 5th, and she steams away under cover of darkness, so when I-168 comes calling on the 6th, she doesn't catch a glimpse.

The pumps should've worked whether power came from the steam or diesel generators. I know that Hornet's electrical systems were damaged at Santa Cruz. But before the third Torpedo, the crew had begun raising steam in one of the boilers, which suggests that the torpedoes had hit different spots. Saying that.

Here's another cutaway of Yorktown from 1942. Notice that her boilers are in one location.

Now cross reference this with the torpedo hits. The forward 2 Boiler rooms are gone until she returns to dry dock. .The aftmost one might be salvageable. But that won't be an easy job. The main weakness of the Yorktowns was that their boiler and engine rooms were in the same location to save weight (don't ask how; I don't know). But she will be mostly operating from that generator. With the boiler rooms inaccessible until she enters drydock at Pearl.

I would agree, except that in this alt situation, the chief engineer is going to be able to report that they still have power generation capabilities, and need to access where they can route the power through and where they have to wait to make repairs, and the chief will be asking for as many portable pumps as he can get, and as soon as possible, while the rest of the crew evacuates.

While the pumps are working and repairs are being made. The rest of TF 17 will converge on Yorktown to pick up the remaining crew, with Portland (Astoria is currently Fletcher's flagship) attaching a tow line to her. While she may not have been under attack like Hornet was at Santa Cruz. Getting a line between two ships in open water is still difficult, especially if Yorktown's rudder is jammed.

I wonder how long it will take to get things under control. With hindsight, we know USS Yorktown did not if fact suffer fatal damage from the pair of air attacks she suffered historically, so if the SOP had had the diesel generators (correctly and prudently) isolated by default, this whole sorry situation wouldn't have taken place.

Based on this POD and if a tow line can be rigged up and her moving, as well as the damage control crew, work through the night of 4-5 June. She can have some compartments pumped out. Possibly based on the damage, have the aftmost boiler room pumped dry, and the bulkhead shored up for those boilers to be re-lighted. It might not get her moving (immediately). But raising steam from those boilers might help in restoring primary power.

I have to disagree. In order to be 'ready' she needs work, yes, but ready is not necessarily fully repaired and given a proper refit and upgraded, but just fixed up good enough to be able to fight.

Keep in mind that only 2 of Yorktown's 6 main boiler rooms were flooded on the 4th, so if the backup diesel generator isn't busily emulating an electric chair, it will be known that the ship had a fighting chance to stop the flooding, correct the list, and get the 4 other boiler rooms relit.

Just for the sake of argument, say patching up holes takes 12 hours, and then relighting the boilers and getting steam up takes another 12 hours, so the ship can get underway by 1800 hours on the 5th. Even if she could only make 12 kts, in the 12 hours before morning, she is still 144 nautical miles away when I-168 gets to her last reported position, and that is not even looking at the list being completely corrected by being able to pump out all the water, or her speed being able to be improved when that is done, so...

Another factor in how I-168 was able to find Yorktown. Was that a seaplane from Chikuma found Yorktown on the morning of 5 June. So her evading that plane must happen before she's in the clear. Under tow at 5 knots for about 15 days. If she gets up to 12 knots, that could be reduced to 5 to 6 days. Once she returns to Pearl Harbor, she may be there for a month or more. To pump out her flooded boiler rooms and install a temporary patch before sending her to Puget Sound or Mare Island for full-scale repairs.

As a carrier, Yorktown would be given priority. Given how things went at Guadalcanal, it may limit how many upgrades she may receive. At a minimum, she could have a heavier AA Battery (more Oerlikons and her 1.1-inch guns replaced by Bofors) and modifications to her CXAM Radar and Mk 33 Fire Control, possibly installing a backup SC Radar. But the big slowdown will be her torpedo damage and prior damage at the Coral Sea, which won't be easy. So if she was to get into drydock by the end of June and start repairs, then. 2-3 months for permanent repairs and upgrades. Plus, a month working up. It should have her departing for Pearl in November. She can be down in Guadalcanal Just after the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. The issue is whether it's enough for Halsey to let her now, just as battered sister Enterprise returned to Pearl Harbor for repairs as Halsey kept her in the South Pacific until April 1943.

PH would work for the initial work I would think, and then it depends on whether Nimitz thinks he can spare her for an extended period on the west coast, or has to press her back into service as is, again.

Correct. Although given the Guadalcanal campaign, she may have her repairs and refit done at Pearl Harbor. I base this on Saratoga's repairs between 21 September and 12 November. Though on a far larger scale.

If Yorktown survives and returns to service at or before the end of 1942 would Victorious be sent to the Pacific? And of she wasn't what would the RN do with her?

The answer is It depends. From what I understand, the US Navy had been asking for spare carriers from the Royal Navy since before Midway. So it's still a possibility of Victorious (Robin) being deployed in theatre. But the Battle of Santa Cruz would be a wild card. This would be if Yorktown is ready and deployed before then and how the US Navy performs in that battle. If it plays the same (Enterprise damaged and Hornet sunk) with Yorktown still in drydock. Then more than likely, Victorious will be given to the US Navy. If it is in the middle, the Three Yorktowns can put up 219 Aircraft vs the IJN's Shokaku, Zuikaku, Jun'yo and Zuiho's 199. But the US Navy was still having issues coordinating their strikes and CAP. Plus, the spotty weather in the battle area on 26 October (clouds and rain squalls). It could see all three ships damaged moderately. With another IJN carrier or warship damaged or sunk in exchange. At that point, Victorious may still be needed.

IMVHO, if she gets home, she won't be considered a constructive total loss. It seems to me that the navy was perhaps overly reluctant to do so--anyone else would probably write off West Virginia, Cassin, and Downes, and possibly California. (Salvaging Oklahoma was considered, though it also makes sense to clear the spot and salvage things like the guns. I don't know when the decision was made to scrap her, though in the event, she chose the Pacific rather than the scrapper's torch.)

Oh, thank you, someone, that agrees with me. It annoys me when someone says, "Because the US had more ships coming down the slipway, they could throw away their older ships when they got damaged." If that was the case, why salvage anything from Pearl Harbor? Why put so much effort into damage control? Why put ships in periodic refits? It's honestly a testament to the US and UK's economic power in World War 2 that they could not only build many new ships. But extensively repair and refit their old ones as well.

 

[NHBL]

Oh, thank you, someone, that agrees with me. It annoys me when someone says, "Because the US had more ships coming down the slipway, they could throw away their older ships when they got damaged." If that was the case, why salvage anything from Pearl Harbor? Why put so much effort into damage control? Why put ships in periodic refits? It's honestly a testament to the US and UK's economic power in World War 2 that they could not only build many new ships. But extensively repair and refit their old ones as well.

There is a point where repair is not economical. I sometimes wonder if the symbolic value of repairing an obsolescent battleship because she was at Pearl was part of the equation. Or the idea of "We're building X, but repair doesn't come out of building allocations, so if we fix her, w have one more battleship. There's always a time, be it with a refrigerator, a car, or a warship, when fixing is too expensive.

 

[CT7834]

There is a point where repair is not economical. I sometimes wonder if the symbolic value of repairing an obsolescent battleship because she was at Pearl was part of the equation. Or the idea of "We're building X, but repair doesn't come out of building allocations, so if we fix her, w have one more battleship. There's always a time, be it with a refrigerator, a car, or a warship, when fixing is too expensive.

True and Oklahoma and Utah weren't repaired after Pearl. But that threshold for economic and non-economic repairs. Plus, at that point in World War 2 there's nothing wrong with the propaganda value. Or the massive "screw you" to the Japanese in repairing them.

 

[Athelstane]

IMVHO, if she gets home, she won't be considered a constructive total loss. It seems to me that the navy was perhaps overly reluctant to do so--anyone else would probably write off West Virginia, Cassin, and Downes, and possibly California. (Salvaging Oklahoma was considered, though it also makes sense to clear the spot and salvage things like the guns. I don't know when the decision was made to scrap her, though in the event, she chose the Pacific rather than the scrapper's torch.)

Yeah. A Navy that insists on salvaging West Virginia and California is definitely going to do whatever it takes to repair and restore Yorktown, even if it takes a full year or more.

 

[Spencersj345.346]

to be blunt if bunker hill and franklin got fixed yorktown is going to be. Plus 2 torpedoes and a few bombs isn't even close to making a ship tbat size a constructive loss unless it well Sinks or burns out

 

[CT7834]

H-057-1: Operations Downfall and Ketsugo – November 1945

H-057.1 Samuel J. Cox, Director, Naval History and Heritage Command January 2021

www.history.navy.mil

Had the Japanese not surrendered and Operation Downfall went ahead. Franklin and Bunker Hill were supposed to participate in it from December 1945.