UKoN as a major power post Congress of Vienna

[Count of Crisco]

Following the end of the Napoleonic wars the allied powers wanted to ensure that if France ever fell into revolution again there would be a series of strong powers on its borders to quickly contain it and restore order. Perhaps the most obvious of these intentions was the creation of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands formed from the former Dutch republic, Austrian Netherlands, Luxembourg and Bishopric of Liege. This new state was sizeable and had great economic potential, something that was heightened with the return of most of the former Dutch colonial empire to the new nation by the British who had been occupying them for several years.

For the period the newly established kingdom was quite capable, however internal disputes between the French speaking Catholics and Dutch speaking Protestants, the refusal by William I to accept limits to his power, and other issues would see the country split in a civil war during the 1830s, from this arising the Kingdom of Belgium, Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, and kingdom of the Netherlands as separate political entities.

But is there any way to continue the United Kingdom of the Netherlands? And better yet keep it as a major European power, probably not the equal to France, the UK or Russia but still a significant player in their own right? Say the king accepts limits to his powers and reforms, the Belgian and Luxembourgish parts of the kingdom get some of their demands accepted and remain in the country.

 

[Fatt Shea]

I heard it will be quite easy to keep the country together, you just need to avoid the French intervention then the revolters will be beaten. With them having their territory they will likely be a major power, and will have a decent impact on European conficts.

 

[Count of Crisco]

I heard it will be quite easy to keep the country together, you just need to avoid the French intervention then the revolters will be beaten.

I wonder if that would just be a short term fix though as it would not actually address the reasons behind the revolt.

 

[rfmcdonald]

I think that ultimately, the United Kingdom of the Netherlands is a deeply unbalanced state, with political power being held in the north while the majority of the population and almost all of its industry being held in the south. You will need to find ways to get the Southern Netherlands on board; the Dutch state is going to have to change to reflect the interests of as many Southerners as possible.

 

[Fatt Shea]

I wonder if that would just be a short term fix though as it would not actually address the reasons behind the revolt.

Well after the revolution is defeated reforms could be implemented or the revolution could be avoided by some changes in state policy, for example giving Belgians more representation in general assembly, giving more concessions to catholics.

 

[Meshakhad]

Perhaps the capital could be moved further south?

 

[Count of Crisco]

Well after the revolution is defeated reforms could be implemented or the revolution could be avoided by some changes in state policy, for example giving Belgians more representation in general assembly, giving more concessions to catholics.

I wonder if the British keeping an interest in keeping the country together and unified against France would help get reforms passed. Maybe Belgium, Luxembourg and Liege are given greater regional autonomy, With the Dutch speaking Belgian provinces continuing with the Netherlands as a means of stopping either of the lesser states from getting too strong.

 

[Nivek]

I wonder if that would just be a short term fix though as it would not actually address the reasons behind the revolt.

Well after the revolution is defeated reforms could be implemented or the revolution could be avoided by some changes in state policy, for example giving Belgians more representation in general assembly, giving more concessions to catholics.

Federated everything and dine

 

[Fatt Shea]

I wonder if the British keeping an interest in keeping the country together and unified against France would help get reforms passed. Maybe Belgium, Luxembourg and Liege are given greater regional autonomy, With the Dutch speaking Belgian provinces continuing with the Netherlands as a means of stopping either of the lesser states from getting too strong.

Yes also I am told the Dutch language would be more popular without Belgian language laws and culture. They say that the Flemish will start to have nationalism against wealthier French speakers in Flanders. This could be used by UKoN

 

[NedStark]

Well after the revolution is defeated reforms could be implemented or the revolution could be avoided by some changes in state policy, for example giving Belgians more representation in general assembly, giving more concessions to catholics.

Given the fact that the king was William I, it is more likely that the UKoN would have experienced a full-blown republican revolution in 1848 rather than reforms.

 

[Jürgen]

I think it’s necessary to give it more of the West Bank of the Rhine to counter Belgium‘s demographic dominance.

 

[NedStark]

I think it’s necessary to give it more of the West Bank of the Rhine to counter Belgium‘s demographic dominance.

However, it would lead to an absolute Catholic majority, which, unfortunately, the Dutch did not like.

 

[Jürgen]

However, it would lead to an absolute Catholic majority, which, unfortunately, the Dutch did not like.

Catholics already made up something like 75-80% of the population of the UKoN, expanding into the Rhineland won’t make that worse.

 

[Count of Crisco]

Catholics already made up something like 75-80% of the population of the UKoN, expanding into the Rhineland won’t make that worse.

Which may have been an impedement to any acceptance of Belgian demands.

 

[Count of Crisco]

Given the fact that the king was William I, it is more likely that the UKoN would have experienced a full-blown republican revolution in 1848 rather than reforms.

Could we have seen William ousted perhaps? Say WI mismanages the Belgian revolt, or the Belgians enjoy more support in the government and he is either forced out, or else abdicates. With William II perhaps having an earlier rule.

 

[pompejus]

I think it’s necessary to give it more of the West Bank of the Rhine to counter Belgium‘s demographic dominance.

Would there be a Belgian demographic dominance? As in the sense that Belgium is half Walloon and half Flemish. There might be a Belgian dominance at first, but at some point with the rise of the Flemish middle and lower class, the Flemsih will want to have some recognition of their culture and language, especialy since they will be supported by the Dutch. At that point the demographic dominance will swing towards the northern Netherlands, even if the Flemish decide to remain a seperate identity from the northern Netherlands (which is possible I guess, but I do not consider it likely in this case). Besides that the Dutch (and Flemish) population growth was significantly larger than the Walloon population growth. Which is why currently the Dutch population is significantly higher than the Belgian population and why the Flemish population is higher than the Walloon population.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Why was william chosen as the king? Obviously the house of orange was an important part of the neighborhood politics but surely there was someone better?

After an agreement with Napoleon, he became the ruler of the Principality of Nassau-Orange-Fulda from 1803 until 1806, when he was deposed by Napoleon. In November 1813, after the Defeat of Napoleon at the Battle of Leipzig, he was asked to become the Sovereign Prince of the United Netherlands.

Hell, wikipedia makes it seem like he was a napoleon lapdog. The last person anyone at vienna should want in charge

 

[Jürgen]

Would there be a Belgian demographic dominance? As in the sense that Belgium is half Walloon and half Flemish. There might be a Belgian dominance at first, but at some point with the rise of the Flemish middle and lower class, the Flemsih will want to have some recognition of their culture and language, especialy since they will be supported by the Dutch. At that point the demographic dominance will swing towards the northern Netherlands, even if the Flemish decide to remain a seperate identity from the northern Netherlands (which is possible I guess, but I do not consider it likely in this case). Besides that the Dutch (and Flemish) population growth was significantly larger than the Walloon population growth. Which is why currently the Dutch population is significantly higher than the Belgian population and why the Flemish population is higher than the Walloon population.

I think the Belgium elite will keep being a problem even if the union last, OTOH there’s also the opportunity that UKoN will see Reformed-Catholic alliance develop with the Belgium elite and Dutch liberals on the other side.

 

[kham_coc]

Make nationalism matter more than religion.
That way the Flemish turn towards the Dutch and that beats the Waloons.
Then either have there be a distinct Waloon, as opposed to French identity, or it lets the Netherlands paint any French involvement in 1830 as wanton aggression just like Napoleon. Even if some French speaking areas are lost, what remains should be a fairly strong power. Stronger if you butterfly Germany, but that might backfire into the Netherlands being a part of alt!Germany (not a prussian state)

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

this is a crazy idea, but hear me out:

Willem I never wanted Belgium IIRC, he was sort of "forced" to take it. What the Belgians wanted was the duke of Teschen (who had been raised in Belgium as the foster son and heir of Maria Christine of Teschen). What Willem I wanted was a "land corridor" down the Rhine between the kingdom of the Netherlands and the duchy of Nassau. This nobody wanted to give him (not even the British). Austria didn't want Belgium because it was more interested in Italy and consolidating its borders.

But, if Willem I's betrothal to Charlotte of Wales seems more likely (for whatever reason, say that Charlotte likes Dutch Billy a little more than she did OTL. Just get him to not be drunk when he meets her, ISTR that he basically staggered forward, introduced himself and vomited over her shoes). However, you get it right matters little. Then get somebody - Talleyrand, perhaps - to point out that the marriage between Charlotte and Billy will mean that if the Netherlands and England wind up in PU (even if only for a reign) they can close the English Channel to anybody they don't like given they now have the control of the channel coast from Texel down to De Panne. Now granted, at the time in question, very few people besides the Dutch have a reason to be worried about a navy getting through from the north (Prussia doesn't have a navy (I don't think it did at this point anyway), Sweden and Denmark aren't necessarily going to be particularly bothered by it, Russia has no reason to send its ships south of the Channel) AFAIK). But his words make an impression on some influential person (whether its Alexander I or Metternich or whoever) that people start getting uneasy about it. Teschen's an allied general who also has a better record than most against the French, so giving him Belgium as a "buffer" isn't necessarily a bad idea (a "small" country with a strong military can pack a punch, ask Prussia under Frederick the Great). The Dutch get their land corridor to Nassau (not sure when or who made the stupid promise to Prussia about restoring their 1793 population, that resulted in Prussia getting all of the Rhineland). Teschen gets the old archbishopric of Trier and whatever part of the Palatinate that the French didn't get as well.

The irony being that those "buffer states" actually helped diddly squat when France had a revolution in 1830 or 1848, since the rest of Europe still caught the flu from a French sneeze. Hell, the whole of Germany was in the way between France and Poland in 1830!