TL-1498: An Alternate Western Europe

[LordVorKon]

Probably shouldn't expect too much in the way of actual narrative here, nor likely frequent updates. In fact, this first post isn't so much an introduction as a teaser, perhaps. More to come (hopefully)?

House of Tudor
1485-1509 Henry VII
1509-1523 Arthur (son of Henry)
1523-1562 David I (son of Arthur)
1562-1575 Edward VI (grandson of David)
1575-1590 Mary I (daughter of Edward) and Henry VIII (Enrique I of Iberia)

House of Tudor-Avis y Trastamara
1590-?? David II

 

[LordVorKon]

It is fair to say that Isabella and Ferdinand, and their four surviving daughters, are one of the most influential families in Europe during the first half of the 16th century. Although only the eldest daughter -- also called Isabella -- ever ruled in her own right, three of the four were married to Kings; it seems probable that had Joanna's husband lived long enough, he would have been elected Holy Roman Emperor.

Although it is the youngest daughter Catalina -- called Catherine in English -- who attracts the most attention in modern times, the tragic tales of her older sisters are compelling to a student of the era.

Isabella II was Queen of Castile and Leon for barely over a year, but prior to that, she had married two successive heirs to the Portuguese throne. Her first husband, Prince Afonso, was ostensibly the victim of a horse-riding accident; it has been suggested that Castilians unhappy with the prospect of a Portuguese king staged an assassination. Her second husband Manuel, was an uncle of Afonso; they married some two years after Manuel's ascension to the throne.

By all accounts, pregnancy was not easy for the young queen. Although she delivered a healthy boy in 1498, the birth nearly killed her. Two further pregnancies, one in 1500 and the other late in 1505, ended in miscarriages, the latter of which probably directly contributed to her death some weeks later.

Joanna, the second daughter of the Catholic Monarchs, married Philip, son and heir apparent of HRE Maximilian I. Philip and Joanna both died of typhoid fever in 1506, leaving behind four young children, none of whom were over the age of 8. Their second son Ferdinand would go on to be Holy Roman Emperor himself.

Maria married Isabella's widower in 1508. Although none of her children ever ruled anywhere, her decendants are scattered throughout Europe's royalty and upper nobility.

From: A History of Iberia, vol 2 (after 1500), Dr. Tomas Roscanon, Universidad de Toledo, c. 1893
Translated into English by Annabel MacTavish, State University of New Albany, 1907.

 

[LordVorKon]

Descendants of Isabella and Ferdinand:

1. Isabella (2 Oct 1470-19 Jan 1506), Princess of Asturias (1497-1504), Queen consort of Portugal (1497-1506), Queen of Castile (1504-1506). She married first Afonso, Prince of Portugal, but after his death she married his uncle King Emanuel I of Portugal.

1. Miguel (23 Aug 1498-5 April 1543), Prince of Portugal (from birth), Prince of Asturias (1504-1506), King of Portugal (1521-1543), King of Castile (1506-1543), King of Aragon (1516-1543).
2. miscarriage, 1500
3. miscarriage, 1505​

2. Son miscarried on 31 May 1475 in Cebreros

3. John (30 Jun 1478-4 Oct 1497), Prince of Asturias (1478-1497). He married Margaret of Habsburg (daughter of Emperor Maximilian I). He died of tuberculosis and his posthumous child with Margaret was stillborn.

4. Joanna (6 Nov 1479-12 Oct 1506), married Philip IV, Duke of Burgundy (d. 25 Sept 1506) (son of the Emperor Maximilian I). She and her husband died of typhoid fever, less than a month apart.

1. Eleanor (1498-1558), married in 1517, Sigismund I of Poland and Lithuania, after a childhood betrothal to Prince William of England, who died young.
2. Charles (1500-1515), Duke of Burgundy (1506-1515)
3. Isabella (1501-1553), married in 1515, Louis II of Hungary and Bohemia; no surviving issue.
4. Ferdinand (1503-1564), Holy Roman Emperor (1525-1564) married in 1521, Anna of Bohemia and Hungary and had children.
5. Mary (1505), died shortly after birth.
She was pregnant with her sixth child at the time of her death.​

5. Maria (29 Jun 1482-7 Mar 1527). She married Manuel (Isabella's widower) 1508, and had issue.

6. Stillborn Daughter, twin of Maria. Born 1 July 1482 at dawn.

7. Catalina (16 Dec 1485-1536), later known Catherine of Aragon, queen of England. She married Arthur, Prince of Wales, son of and heir to King Henry VII of England.

1. William Theodore (1503-?? before 1516)
2. Dafydd (1506-1562), King of England (as David I) (1533-1562)
3. Elizabeth (1508-??)
others?​

 

[LordVorKon]

Theodore of Tarsus was archbishop of Canterbury in the mid-late 7th century. His feast day is 19 September. Theodore was promoted as the patron saint of the House of Tudor during the 16th century, due to the widespread belief that Arthur, Prince of Wales, was born on his feast day. (Later 17th century scolarship suggests that Arthur was in fact born early the next morning.) Arthur's survival of the sweating sickness in 1502 was at that time deemed a miracle attributed to Theodore.

-- "Theodore of Tarsus", New World Encyclopedia 8th edition, 1899

 

[isabella]

Descendants of Isabella and Ferdinand:

1. Isabella (2 Oct 1470-1506), Princess of Asturias (1497-1504), Queen consort of Portugal (1497-1506), Queen of Castile (1504-1506). She married first Afonso, Prince of Portugal, but after his death she married his uncle King Emanuel I of Portugal.

1. Miguel (23 Aug 1498-5 April 1543), Prince of Portugal (from birth), Prince of Asturias (1504-1506), King of Portugal (1521-1543), King of Castile (1506-1543), King of Aragon (1516-1543).
2. miscarriage, 1500
3. miscarriage, 1505​

4. Joanna (6 Nov 1479-12 Oct 1506), married Philip IV, Duke of Burgundy (d. 25 Sept 1506) (son of the Emperor Maximilian I). She and her husband died of typhoid fever, less than a month apart.

1. Eleanor (1498-1558)
2. Charles (1500-1515), Duke of Burgundy (1506-1515)
3. Isabella (1501-1526), married in 1515, Christian II of Denmark and had children.
4. Ferdinand (1503-1564), Holy Roman Emperor (1525-1564) married in 1521, Anna of Bohemia and Hungary and had children.
5. Mary (1505), died shortly after birth.
She was pregnant with her sixth child at the time of her death.​

others?

A couple of things about Juana’s children: no way Eleanor will stay unmarried and if Mary died at her birth or shortly after, Isabella will be engaged to the future Louis II of Hungary and Bohemia in her place...

 

[LordVorKon]

A couple of things about Juana’s children: no way Eleanor will stay unmarried and if Mary died at her birth or shortly after, Isabella will be engaged to the future Louis II of Hungary and Bohemia in her place...

Fair points. In Eleanor's case, I hadn't intended to imply that she didn't marry; thus far I have only determined that she didn't marry Manuel (who only has two wives ITTL due to Maria of Aragon outliving him). I don't really see her marrying Henry, Duke of York, since Arthur is still alive, married to Catherine, and has an heir and a spare.

 

[kasumigenx]

Fair points. In Eleanor's case, I hadn't intended to imply that she didn't marry; thus far I have only determined that she didn't marry Manuel (who only has two wives ITTL due to Maria of Aragon outliving him). I don't really see her marrying Henry, Duke of York, since Arthur is still alive, married to Catherine, and has an heir and a spare.

She would likely marry Miguel..

 

[LordVorKon]

She would likely marry Miguel..

Her first cousin? I understand that the House of Trastamara was inbred long before the Hapsburgs made it popular, but I'd like to steer them away from that a bit iTTL.

 

[isabella]

Fair points. In Eleanor's case, I hadn't intended to imply that she didn't marry; thus far I have only determined that she didn't marry Manuel (who only has two wives ITTL due to Maria of Aragon outliving him). I don't really see her marrying Henry, Duke of York, since Arthur is still alive, married to Catherine, and has an heir and a spare.

She would likely marry Miguel..

Her first cousin? I understand that the House of Trastamara was inbred long before the Hapsburgs made it popular, but I'd like to steer them away from that a bit iTTL.

Well I will tell you who both of Trastamara and Avis were highly inbreed and that is the origin of the later Habsburg and Bourbon inbreeding...

Eleanor for Miguel is a pretty logical match from the Avis-Trastamara point of view but I will say who a less related princess of Navarre or a princess of France is a better political choice for him, plus the wedding of Eleanor will be arranged by Maximilian and Margaret.
No way Henry Tudor, Duke of York will be one the possible candidates for her...
The only trouble I have is finding her the right husband as she would likely be engaged very young and none of the most logical match for her will be available (as Eleanor OTL was engaged for long time to Henry, Prince of Wales)...
Maybe an engagement to Miguel who later fell apart as Manuel/Miguel will decide for another bride (or Maximilian will need Eleanor for another match)?

If you want the Danish wedding for Isabella you just need to have Mary living until 1515/16 or kill off Louis around 1514...

In OTL Eleanor was offered as bride to Sigmund I of Poland, Antoine, Duke of Lorraine, Louis XII of France (as third wife), the future Francis I of France (before his wedding to Claude, when he was still Duke of Angouleme). Likely she will not be offered to Denmark (as like in OTL her guardians will hope to use her for a more useful match) or allowed to marry Frederick of Palatinate (mostly because her cousin Sibylle of Bavaria had already married Frederick’s older brother)

 

[kasumigenx]

Well I will tell you who both of Trastamara and Avis were highly inbreed and that is the origin of the later Habsburg and Bourbon inbreeding...

Eleanor for Miguel is a pretty logical match from the Avis-Trastamara point of view but I will say who a less related princess of Navarre or a princess of France is a better political choice for him, plus the wedding of Eleanor will be arranged by Maximilian and Margaret.
No way Henry Tudor, Duke of York will be one the possible candidates for her...
The only trouble I have is finding her the right husband as she would likely be engaged very young and none of the most logical match for her will be available (as Eleanor OTL was engaged for long time to Henry, Prince of Wales)...
Maybe an engagement to Miguel who later fell apart as Manuel/Miguel will decide for another bride (or Maximilian will need Eleanor for another match)?

If you want the Danish wedding for Isabella you just need to have Mary living until 1515/16 or kill off Louis around 1514...

In OTL Eleanor was offered as bride to Sigmund I of Poland, Antoine, Duke of Lorraine, Louis XII of France (as third wife), the future Francis I of France (before his wedding to Claude, when he was still Duke of Angouleme). Likely she will not be offered to Denmark (as like in OTL her guardians will hope to use her for a more useful match) or allowed to marry Frederick of Palatinate (mostly because her cousin Sibylle of Bavaria had already married Frederick’s older brother)

Maybe, Miguel can marry Germaine or Princess Claude if Louis XII has sons not Anne of Navarre since Anne is a Princess with bad reputation.

 

[LordVorKon]

Well I will tell you who both of Trastamara and Avis were highly inbreed and that is the origin of the later Habsburg and Bourbon inbreeding...

Yes, I know. Like I said, I'm trying to steer the dynasty away from such habits a bit, at least to the point of avoiding first-cousin marriages.

The only trouble I have is finding her the right husband as she would likely be engaged very young and none of the most logical match for her will be available (as Eleanor OTL was engaged for long time to Henry, Prince of Wales)...
Maybe an engagement to Miguel who later fell apart as Manuel/Miguel will decide for another bride (or Maximilian will need Eleanor for another match)?

In OTL Eleanor was offered as bride to Sigmund I of Poland, Antoine, Duke of Lorraine, Louis XII of France (as third wife), the future Francis I of France (before his wedding to Claude, when he was still Duke of Angouleme). Likely she will not be offered to Denmark (as like in OTL her guardians will hope to use her for a more useful match) or allowed to marry Frederick of Palatinate (mostly because her cousin Sibylle of Bavaria had already married Frederick’s older brother)

Maybe, Miguel can marry Germaine or Princess Claude if Louis XII has sons not Anne of Navarre since Anne is a Princess with bad reputation.

I think Navarre is a good choice for Miguel. There will be some kerfluffle in Iberia during the 1506-1516 period which might well distract Ferdinand from his plotting against Navarre. I admit to knowing basically nothing about the children of Catherine and John III of Navarre, so pray tell @kasumigenx why does Anne have a bad reputation? And if she is unsuitable, would Catherine (the one born 1495) or Quiteria be acceptable? Apparently they both ended up in convents OTL. The second sister Magdalena was apparently sent to Castile as an infant with the intent of eventual marriage, but I have no reason at this point to change her OTL 1504 death. Regardless, I feel like this marriage would be agreed to c. 1505, during the brief reign of Isabella II in Castile.

Eleanor continues to be a problem, however, doesn't she? Sigismund's second wife seems to be the best option that I've seen so far, but getting her there could be challenging.

 

[kasumigenx]

Yes, I know. Like I said, I'm trying to steer the dynasty away from such habits a bit, at least to the point of avoiding first-cousin marriages.





I think Navarre is a good choice for Miguel. There will be some kerfluffle in Iberia during the 1506-1516 period which might well distract Ferdinand from his plotting against Navarre. I admit to knowing basically nothing about the children of Catherine and John III of Navarre, so pray tell @kasumigenx why does Anne have a bad reputation? And if she is unsuitable, would Catherine (the one born 1495) or Quiteria be acceptable? Apparently they both ended up in convents OTL. The second sister Magdalena was apparently sent to Castile as an infant with the intent of eventual marriage, but I have no reason at this point to change her OTL 1504 death. Regardless, I feel like this marriage would be agreed to c. 1505, during the brief reign of Isabella II in Castile.

Eleanor continues to be a problem, however, doesn't she? Sigismund's second wife seems to be the best option that I've seen so far, but getting her there could be challenging.

Anne of Navarre is worse than her cousin Claude, she is more deformed and is a dwarf and a woman who was once betrothed to Francis I, if Magdalene never died she will marry Fernando not Germaine..so it is either her or Germaine who marries Miguel or Fernando.

 

[LordVorKon]

Okay, I think I got this. Maybe.

c. 1503-4, there is an agreement to marry Magdalena of Navarre to Prince Miguel and Eleanor to her other cousin Prince William, the firstborn child of the Prince of Wales. However Magdalena dies in mid-1504 (per OTL) and her sister Catherine is substituted instead.

Meanwhile Eleanor is conveniently tied up with her betrothal to William until his death somewhere in the 1512-1515 range, whereupon she is free to instead marry Sigismund.

Isabella II is Queen of Castile until January or February 1506, leaving Manuel and Ferdinand to argue over who gets to be regent for 7-year-old Miguel. Ferdinand probably comes out of this argument second-best; he marries Germaine (somewhat later than OTL) in order to spawn a male heir so Aragon doesn't end up in union with Portugal.

 

[kasumigenx]

Okay, I think I got this. Maybe.

c. 1503-4, there is an agreement to marry Magdalena of Navarre to Prince Miguel and Eleanor to her other cousin Prince William, the firstborn child of the Prince of Wales. However Magdalena dies in mid-1504 (per OTL) and her sister Catherine is substituted instead.

Meanwhile Eleanor is conveniently tied up with her betrothal to William until his death somewhere in the 1512-1515 range, whereupon she is free to instead marry Sigismund.

Isabella II is Queen of Castile until January or February 1506, leaving Manuel and Ferdinand to argue over who gets to be regent for 7-year-old Miguel. Ferdinand probably comes out of this argument second-best; he marries Germaine (somewhat later than OTL) in order to spawn a male heir so Aragon doesn't end up in union with Portugal.

Magdalene did die with her grandmother who is her namesake..so having Magdalene survive might mean her grandmother survives as well.

I think Ferdinand might select a new bride other than Germaine since Germaine's purpose is already done by her cousin, so instead we can see some German bride chosen by Max to marry Ferdinand instead.

 

[LordVorKon]

Magdalene did die with her grandmother who is her namesake..so having Magdalene survive might mean her grandmother survives as well.

Not according to the sources I can find. Magdalene of Valois (the elder) died in 1495, while Magdalene of Navarre (the younger) died in 1504. Yes, both while 'guests' in Castile, but 9 years apart.

I think Ferdinand might select a new bride other than Germaine since Germaine's purpose is already done by her cousin, so instead we can see some German bride chosen by Max to marry Ferdinand instead.

Are we talking about different people here? Ferdinand II of Aragon married Germaine of Foix (OTL because he didn't like Philip of Burgundy and wanted a male heir for Aragon; TTL because he prefers that Aragon not be in union with Portugal). Ferdinand of Burgundy (the only Ferdinand that Emperor Maximilian will have any influence over) will in due time marry Anne of Bohemia as OTL.

 

[kasumigenx]

Not according to the sources I can find. Magdalene of Valois (the elder) died in 1495, while Magdalene of Navarre (the younger) died in 1504. Yes, both while 'guests' in Castile, but 9 years apart.



Are we talking about different people here? Ferdinand II of Aragon married Germaine of Foix (OTL because he didn't like Philip of Burgundy and wanted a male heir for Aragon; TTL because he prefers that Aragon not be in union with Portugal). Ferdinand of Burgundy (the only Ferdinand that Emperor Maximilian will have any influence over) will in due time marry Anne of Bohemia as OTL.

I might have mis read the sources..so just disregard.

Magdalene/Catherine will carry the Neapolitan claims from Louis XII like Germaine did.

But regarding Max finding a bride..for Fernando II, even the wiki says that, we can end up with Fernando marrying Elizabeth Jagiellon instead.

 

[isabella]

Okay, I think I got this. Maybe.

c. 1503-4, there is an agreement to marry Magdalena of Navarre to Prince Miguel and Eleanor to her other cousin Prince William, the firstborn child of the Prince of Wales. However Magdalena dies in mid-1504 (per OTL) and her sister Catherine is substituted instead.

Meanwhile Eleanor is conveniently tied up with her betrothal to William until his death somewhere in the 1512-1515 range, whereupon she is free to instead marry Sigismund.

Isabella II is Queen of Castile until January or February 1506, leaving Manuel and Ferdinand to argue over who gets to be regent for 7-year-old Miguel. Ferdinand probably comes out of this argument second-best; he marries Germaine (somewhat later than OTL) in order to spawn a male heir so Aragon doesn't end up in union with Portugal.

Ferdinand here will not remarry as he do not need an heir different from Isabella/Miguel until OTL as he had always a very good relationship with Manuel (who likely will left regency of Castile to Ferdinand) and really an united Spain was the dream of his life and trying to destroy it and everything who he and Isabella had build surely was not easy for him... Here he has zero reason for doing that and an union of Spain with Manuel’s Portugal was something Ferdinand and Isabella strongly wished...
Miguel will likely marry the eldest princess of Navarre available between Catherine’s daughters not Germaine...
Eleanor to England then Poland can surely work

 

[isabella]

I might have mis read the sources..so just disregard.

Magdalene/Catherine will carry the Neapolitan claims from Louis XII like Germaine did.

But regarding Max finding a bride..for Fernando II, even the wiki says that, we can end up with Fernando marrying Elizabeth Jagiellon instead.

Ferdinand with Manuel’s son as heir will never remarry...
In OTL he tried to destroy the work of his life only because he and Philip mutually hated each other while Ferdinand and Manuel had a good relationship and Ferdinand had Isabella had strongly wanted the wedding between Isabella and Manuel for securing the inheritance of their kingdoms

 

[LordVorKon]

Ferdinand and Manuel had a good relationship and Ferdinand had Isabella had strongly wanted the wedding between Isabella and Manuel for securing the inheritance of their kingdoms

Yeah... y'know, I knew that, too. Fair enough.

we can end up with Fernando marrying Elizabeth Jagiellon instead.

That certainly could happen, but I'm not going to change things just for the sake of changing them. At this point I don't see much reason why that detail needs to change.

 

[isabella]

Yeah... y'know, I knew that, too. Fair enough.



That certainly could happen, but I'm not going to change things just for the sake of changing them. At this point I don't see much reason why that detail needs to change.

So no second wedding for Ferdinand II here?