The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery

[Lalli]

Poland has occupation era border + Gdansk because it couldn't afford more land due hellish reducion of its population. There just wasn't enough of population to settle more land.

Existence of South Sudan is quiet logical it being very different from North Sudan.

Agree with UAR. It hardly could be exist anyway since there is not such rise of Arab naitonalism due lack of Israel.

I think that borders of Balkans are bit odd altough not sure has CalBear stated much about them. At least I would had imaginated Hungary keeping its WW2 era conquests since neighb ors hardly could take them back and Allies hardly had much of will enfocrce Hungary to return to Trianon borders. And perhaps I would had allowed Italy to keep Istria. IIRC Yugoslavian Istria was Tito's idea so it might not happen there.

And Indo-Afghanistan border is bit odd. But probably just mistake on drawing.

 

[brooklyn99]

Poland has occupation era border + Gdansk because it couldn't afford more land due hellish reducion of its population. There just wasn't enough of population to settle more land.

Existence of South Sudan is quiet logical it being very different from North Sudan.

Agree with UAR. It hardly could be exist anyway since there is not such rise of Arab naitonalism due lack of Israel.

I think that borders of Balkans are bit odd altough not sure has CalBear stated much about them. At least I would had imaginated Hungary keeping its WW2 era conquests since neighb ors hardly could take them back and Allies hardly had much of will enfocrce Hungary to return to Trianon borders. And perhaps I would had allowed Italy to keep Istria. IIRC Yugoslavian Istria was Tito's idea so it might not happen there.

And Indo-Afghanistan border is bit odd. But probably just mistake on drawing.

Balkans are certainly odd. That Transylvanian enclave inside Romania (Hungarian populated szekeleyland) is one of the more perplexing features.

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

Colombia still fell to civil war and there hasn't been succesful peace process? Altough I am bit amazed that A4 hasn't managed to enforce government of Colobmia and FARC to end the war.

Maybe the Violencia still occured, since the causes behind it couldn't have changed TTL. OTOH, I'm sure the falangists and pajaros massacring liberals en masse couldn't occur as much as OTL, lest they get invaded.

 

[Kuggy]

Just had a thought about China, and I must admit, been on my mind for a little while, how would things have gone down had China been ruled by either Mao like in OTL or Chiang-Kai Shek rather than this so called Cabal?

Only thing that I can come up with is that the remnants of the USSR would most definitely have friendlier relations with a Mao led China, although there is a question as to whether they'll be a puppet state or outright annexed, either way the rump USSR would most definitely be dependent on China for most things

On another note, why didn't the Cabal aim for a nuclear weapons and/or rocket/space program in the 60's (At the very earliest, were the Cabal even a thing in the 60's, I forget) as I don't think that the A4 would've been able to do much of anything about that, at least at that point in time

 

[Captain Homicide]

why didn't the Cabal aim for a nuclear weapons and/or rocket/space program in the 60's (At the very earliest, were the Cabal even a thing in the 60's, I forget) as I don't think that the A4 would've been able to do much of anything about that, at least at that point in time

I’m sure it has been addressed but I’d say the Cabal didn’t have nuclear weapons or a space program because they didn’t have outside help and expertise like OTL China (assuming they had the desire to build them at all) and the A4 would have stopped them eventually through strategic bombing of the relevant locations. The Cabal’s focus is on building bioweapons so they can wipe out all non Chinese without being detected which isn’t feasible with a nuclear arsenal. They want to rule a world free of non Chinese, not a world of rubble and radioactive wastelands.

 

[Lalli]

Just had a thought about China, and I must admit, been on my mind for a little while, how would things have gone down had China been ruled by either Mao like in OTL or Chiang-Kai Shek rather than this so called Cabal?

Only thing that I can come up with is that the remnants of the USSR would most definitely have friendlier relations with a Mao led China, although there is a question as to whether they'll be a puppet state or outright annexed, either way the rump USSR would most definitely be dependent on China for most things

Not sure if communists can even take power in China ITTL. But if they manage, Soviets are puppet of China. Mao hardly is going to annex the place. No reason and A4 wouldn't allow that. And probably not conquer of Tibet either.

No idea what would happen with victory of KMT. Would they just let Soviet Union to succumb to its own shit? But A4 probably not allow China take Mongolia and Tuba (even still nowadays claimed by RoC). And hardly conquest of Tibet either.

Just wondering what would happen if CHina is divided between communists and KMT.

Anyway I have wondered if in future the Cabal decides launch its terrible plan and the country is totally nuked what kind of climate affect it wouldhas?

On another note, why didn't the Cabal aim for a nuclear weapons and/or rocket/space program in the 60's (At the very earliest, were the Cabal even a thing in the 60's, I forget) as I don't think that the A4 would've been able to do much of anything about that, at least at that point in time

A4 not allow anyone else develope its own nukes and space technology and China has not capacities make its own nukes and space rockets alone. And building of such things secretly is really difficult if not impossible and testing of them secretly is totally impossible.

 

[Gukpard]

Calbear, what do you think that people get wrong when writting about nazis?

 

[Captain Homicide]

Calbear, what do you think that people get wrong when writting about nazis?

I’m not CalBear but from his posts in the past most likely how awful and twisted a Nazi Europe would be, the idea that a victorious Reich would moderate and that they wouldn’t be able to accomplish Generalplan Ost (at least the killing and enslavement parts).

 

[wcv215]

Calbear, what do you think that people get wrong when writting about nazis?

In addition to what CH said, personally I find people often just don’t get how awful the Nazis were. When Schindler’s List was released it was heavily criticized for how over the top evil Amon Goethe was deployed…except Goethe in the film was toned down because his actual behavior was thought to be too unbelievable.

In other media see things like Hydra from Marvel, where they’re supposed to be Nazis, but worse. Only at every turn they’re actually just shown to be nicer Nazis.

 

[Captain Homicide]

personally I find people often just don’t get how awful the Nazis were.

There’s a reason why Come and See is considered along with Threads as horror films that aren’t technically horror films. Most people that know of the Reich’s atrocities and the evils of Nazism know only in broad strokes half remembered from school and popular culture and the same goes for Imperial Japan, Stalin’s USSR, Saddam’s Iraq etc. Anyone can spout off statistics about how many people were shot, gassed, starved etc but true understanding comes from learning small details and reading accounts from the victims, bystanders and perpetrators as the events unfolded. Only then can you gain true appreciation and insight into the horror, mayhem and immorality of a particular regime, group, war or event. Of course most people won’t bother to do the research especially on such a grim topic. The best book I’ve read on the atrocities and genocides of Nazi Germany that a layman could easily understand is Empire of Destruction by Alex Kay.

When Schindler’s List was released it was heavily criticized for how over the top evil Amon Goethe was deployed…except Goethe in the film was toned down because his actual behavior was thought to be too unbelievable.

True and Amon wasn’t unique. There were many Nazi concentration camp commandants and staff members that were especially sadistic and brutal in ways you’d expect from fictional villains. KL by Nikolaus Wachsmann is the best, most comprehensive book on the Nazi concentration camps from 1933 to 1945 and how hellish and nightmarish they were.

 

[Lalli]

Calbear, what do you think that people get wrong when writting about nazis?

Not the bear but these is my major problems of many nazi related fictions:

- Victorious nazis manage to moderate themselves and Generalplan Ost is decided to be cancelled.
- Nazis often manage to get nuclear bombs despite that they didn't believe such things because they saw these as "Jewish schience" which couldn't work.
- Victorious nazis are always succesful internally and on domestic politics. Internally they manage to keep Germany stable and even commtting smooth power transition after Hitler's death (TNO and TWR are one of few expections). They too often just moderate themselves and even commit partian de-nazification. It is just ignored how horrible whole nazi ideology was already from beginning. And nazis too manage create somehow good relationships with United States.
- Ways how nazis win the war are often too implausible. I have already mentined nukes. Another thing with themn is that when nazis drop one nuke Britain/USA surrend immediately. And nazis are too succesful on that Operation aquatic feline.
- Many too ignore how incompetent and messy whole nazi inner circle was and how few of time Hitler actually had. I have seen too many stories where Hitler lives to 1960's and being still capable to carry his job, Actually Hitler's health was already in 1945 really terrible and him hadn't much chances to live beyond 1950. I can anywa forgive for this TL since it desribes nazi horrors accurately.

 

[Lalli]

And yet one thing on nazi fiction which annoys me:

Notzis. Hitler and co. still come power but now they are lesser racist, lesser antisemtici, not so warmongering and more competent. They just decides not to genocide Jews and not try conquer Europe without any clear reason.

 

[Whiteshore]

Notzis. Hitler and co. still come power but now they are lesser racist, lesser antisemtici, not so warmongering and more competent. They just decides not to genocide Jews and not try conquer Europe without any clear reason.

Or more "conventional" right-wing authoritarians take over Germany, for that matter.

 

[Captain Homicide]

Actually Hitler's health was already in 1945 really terrible and him hadn't much chances to live beyond 1950.

CalBear has elaborated on this before but if the Reich won the war in 1941-1943 Hitler wouldn’t have anywhere near as much stress (which exacerbates illness) and wouldn’t have to take anywhere near as many drugs either. Hitler’s immediate adult family except his mother all died in their 60s so it isn’t implausible to think Hitler wouldn’t be alive and functional in the 1950s in the event of a Nazi victory.

Nazis often manage to get nuclear bombs despite that they didn't believe such things because they saw these as "Jewish schience" which couldn't work.

The only reasons why the Reich didn’t get nuclear weapons in AANW is because the remnants of the KGB fed them misinformation and the US deliberately never used atomic bombs against Japan so they never thought it was possible. By the time the WAllies used nuclear weapons on German cities in the Hot War it was too late. In the meta sense it was a decision by the author to make a more interesting story as much as I’d like to see a story about a nuclear war between the Greater Germanic Reich and the WAllies in the 1950s.

CalBear has explicitly stated that if the Reich won the war and knew atomic weapons were possible with the resources of Europe and expertise at their disposal they would have built an nuclear arsenal comparable to OTL USSR. The whole “Jewish science” thing is exaggerated in light of the fact that the Reich did have somewhat of a nuclear program IOTL but the ongoing war sucked necessary resources away from it. This wouldn’t be the case in peacetime. Hitler supported the development of chemical weapons and fantasized about New York City and London in flames so he definitely would have ensured any peacetime nuclear program was properly funded. The Reich was evil but that doesn’t mean it was made up of morons otherwise Operation Paperclip wouldn’t have happened.

 

[JamesHunter]

Or more "conventional" right-wing authoritarians take over Germany, for that matter.

TBF something that was pretty much certain to happen OTL, in January 1933 there was always going to be a dictatorship it was just a question of who ran it. If the establishment hadn't suddenly turned to Hitler (largely due to Von Papen's machinations and hatred of Schleicher for displacing him) then either another chancellor gets an enabling act or the military takes over.

Apart from anything else the Nazi's are at the end of their rope by the time they get power. They're out of money, the SA is restless (and not being paid) and people were deserting in droves over Hitler's continued refusal to participate in coalition government. If Hitler hadn't gotten his chancellorship when he did its likely the Nazi's would come apart over the summer (especially as the economy is turning the corner at last) while the only ones on the grow are the Communists.

Since the other right wing parties are no hopers and Hindenburg won't call the SPD, continued government paralysis (and the more left wing SA deserting to the KPD) will see fears continue to rise. The army steps in to restore order and as with the Nazi's rearmament is nodded through by the west on ground's of anti-communism.

Without the racial ideology that Government probably limits itself to union with Austria and then a small fight with Poland over the corridor. They win that and puppet Poland which might lead to a cold war unless the Red army has unscrewed itself by that point and causes a survival alliance with the entente.

Meanwhile Hitler fades away as his party falls apart. Absent the drugs and stress he probably lives longer but no later than 1960 at the very most.

 

[Whiteshore]

TBF something that was pretty much certain to happen OTL, in January 1933 there was always going to be a dictatorship it was just a question of who ran it. If the establishment hadn't suddenly turned to Hitler (largely due to Von Papen's machinations and hatred of Schleicher for displacing him) then either another chancellor gets an enabling act or the military takes over.

Apart from anything else the Nazi's are at the end of their rope by the time they get power. They're out of money, the SA is restless (and not being paid) and people were deserting in droves over Hitler's continued refusal to participate in coalition government. If Hitler hadn't gotten his chancellorship when he did its likely the Nazi's would come apart over the summer (especially as the economy is turning the corner at last) while the only ones on the grow are the Communists.

Since the other right wing parties are no hopers and Hindenburg won't call the SPD, continued government paralysis (and the more left wing SA deserting to the KPD) will see fears continue to rise. The army steps in to restore order and as with the Nazi's rearmament is nodded through by the west on ground's of anti-communism.

Without the racial ideology that Government probably limits itself to union with Austria and then a small fight with Poland over the corridor. They win that and puppet Poland which might lead to a cold war unless the Red army has unscrewed itself by that point and causes a survival alliance with the entente.

Meanwhile Hitler fades away as his party falls apart. Absent the drugs and stress he probably lives longer but no later than 1960 at the very most.

So, a "Notzi" (in the sense of "conventional right-wing authoritarian") Germany was actually one of the most likely outcomes for Germany had the Nazis not taken over?

 

[JamesHunter]

So, a "Notzi" (in the sense of "conventional right-wing authoritarian") Germany was actually one of the most likely outcomes for Germany had the Nazis not taken over?

Pretty much. Democracy is basically dead by late '32 and the Chancellorship is in Hindenburg's gift. He was never inviting a left party in if he could help it and the right wing had been wreaked by the rise of you know who. If the Nazi's come apart then things like the DNVP might get back a few votes but they don't appeal to the lower classes the way Hitler did.

Add in a strong socialist element in the SA (who have no where to go but the KPD, Stresser or independence if the Nazi's collapse) and you'd see fear of communism stoked further. That's especially true if the KPD tries anything or seems to be trying anything as they won't be able to get any military support.

The army restrictions have largely ensured that the high command could make sure only commited second Reich level nationalists have any place there (many are still monarchist). So yeah if it looks like the Nazi's are done and the KPD is rising the army seizes power and then uses the smaller right wing parties and the Zentrum to create the illusion of civilian government.

 

[suul'ken]

Meanwhile Hitler fades away as his party falls apart. Absent the drugs and stress he probably lives longer but no later than 1960 at the very most.

So humanity was simply unlucky that a minbogling number of circumstances occurred in order to allow nazies to take power?
I m not superstitious but it almost seems that some malign force as helping the nazies get an stay in power!
there were many assasinatio attempts at Hitler and other nazi officials, but they mostly failed with few exceptions...

 

[JamesHunter]

So humanity was simply unlucky that a minbogling number of circumstances occurred in order to allow nazies to take power?
I m not superstitious but it almost seems that some malign force as helping the nazies get an stay in power!
there were many assasinatio attempts at Hitler and other nazi officials, but they mostly failed with few exceptions...

The conservative reactionary's thought Hitler was someone they could control and use to get their own goals achieved. By the time they realised how badly they'd f**ked up (as much by letting the Nazi's control the interior ministry as making Hitler chancellor) it was to late and disaster could not be avoided.

But broadly it was a bunch of desperate people turning to someone they didn't understand. Went about as well as the Joker did for the Gotham mob.

 

[Captain Homicide]

So humanity was simply unlucky that a minbogling number of circumstances occurred in order to allow nazies to take power?

It took a lot of lucky breaks and special circumstances for Hitler to take power and conquer most of Europe. Hitler in many respects was an evil genius.

The Nazis were uniquely evil but history is full of genocides, bloodthirsty leaders and fanatical groups. There are enough in the 20th century to write an entire library about (Pol Pot, Saddam, Mao, Stalin, Idi Amin, Mugabe, Leopold ll etc) let alone the thousands of years before. R.J. Rummel did an excellent write up on the various atrocities and bloodbaths of pre 20th century history.