Terres Australes | Alternative World Thread by Substantial_Habit

[shearsforest]

6.

Forgot to enlarge Kerguelen in the infobox world map proper (not the one in the logo).

 

[Gabingston]

5. Kerguelen's path to independence shares several parallels with Canada's independence. Kerguelen achieved its independence peacefully through the Treaty of 1961. During this period, France was dealing with the decolonization of its West African colonies, the Algerian War (1954-1962), and the recent collapse of the Fourth French Republic in late 1958. As the population of Kerguelen experienced a significant increase in the second half of the 20th century, the financial burden of maintaining the territory became unsustainable for France, leading to a decision to relinquish control (in a sense, France kicked them out). Nevertheless, a considerable portion of Kerguelen's population felt neglected by the French government and believed that greater autonomy, or even full independence, could address their concerns. By 1960, there was already a growing movement advocating for self-determination and self-governance among the island's residents.

Speaking of the Algerian War, did any Pied-Noirs settle in Kergeulen?

 

[Višeslav]

Beautiful stuff so far. Kind of reminds me of some of the higher effort country profiles in Nationstates if you’ve ever heard of that game although this is still of a higher quality. It’s definitely at home with some of the best map & graphic TLs on this site.

Is Kerguelen meant to be a kind of anti-Canada? South pole instead of North, English got there first but are now a minority in an independent Francophone state rather than vice versa.

Either way very cool.

 

[Substantial_Habit_94]

I'd imagine the flora of Kerguelen would be similar to New Zealand and Patagonia (Antarctic Flora) while the fauna would be truly one of a kind, likely a mixture of large flightless birds and cold adapted marsupials. Do you have any info regarding Kerguelen's flora and fauna, @Substantial_Habit_94?

Not yet, but coming soon!

 

[Substantial_Habit_94]

Speaking of the Algerian War, did any Pied-Noirs settle in Kergeulen?

Of course, many Pied-Noirs relocated to Kerguelen, New Caledonia, Canada, Spain, France, Israel, the US.... however, the Pied-Noir community in Kerguelen was completely assimilated by the french one. The Kerguelen census doesn't recognise them as a separate minority.

Forgot to enlarge Kerguelen in the infobox world map proper (not the one in the logo).

Fk, true!!

Beautiful stuff so far. Kind of reminds me of some of the higher effort country profiles in Nationstates if you’ve ever heard of that game although this is still of a higher quality. It’s definitely at home with some of the best map & graphic TLs on this site.

Is Kerguelen meant to be a kind of anti-Canada? South pole instead of North, English got there first but are now a minority in an independent Francophone state rather than vice versa.

Either way very cool.

That is very well put! Never thought about it, but yeah. It is kind of a reversed Canada.

 

[LeinadB93]

Honestly, you don't know how much I appreciate you doing the QBAM map because I had no idea! you are a legend!

I honestly have a problem with getting focused on one small project to the exclusion of everything else.

1. I would love to make a wold map of the TTL but first I need to learn how 🫠

Happy to offer any pointers if I can. I found QBAM was a good place to start and then develop into Inkscape SVG latter.

2. The coat of Arms of Kerguelen is described as follows: "A shield parted quarterly. In first, gules with three or lions with azure claws and tongues; in second, three or fleurs-de-lis on azure field; in third, a sable Southern Cross in argent field; and in fourth a bendy of six, or and azure, with a bordure in gules." Indeed, the three lions represent the English heritage of the country. English whalers and sealers were among the first to settle Kerguelen after its discovery, developing their unique culture in the predominantly French archipelago. Today, around 10-14% of the population has British and Irish ancestry, and English is recognized as an official language in most provinces and at national level. However, the lions also represent the French region of Aquitaine from where many Kergueleans trace back their origins. (btw yes, I made it myself)

Fascinating

3. Kerguelen's Afrikaans speaking population began to arrive during the 1990's. The Afrikaner diaspora developed as a result of the transition period out of apartheid and white minority rule in South Africa. Many Afrikaners emigrated and settled in predominantly English-speaking countries like Australia and New Zealand. However, great numbers of Afrikaners also chose Kerguelen in this TTL due to its proximity to South Africa. Afrikaners make around 3% of the countries population today. I will publish an ethnic breakdown of the country soon.

Makes complete sense. I'm looking forward to the ethnic breakdown - I wouldn't be surprised if it was settled in a similar way to OTL Mauritius and Reunion, but it will be interesting to see what you come up with.

4. YES! Britain made a few unsuccessful attempts to take Kerguelen, the most relevant was the Raid on Port-aux-Français in 1810, which was part of the Napoleonic wars.

Of course! Did Britain return the colony during one of the many peace treaties?

5. Kerguelen's path to independence shares several parallels with Canada's independence. Kerguelen achieved its independence peacefully through the Treaty of 1961. During this period, France was dealing with the decolonization of its West African colonies, the Algerian War (1954-1962), and the recent collapse of the Fourth French Republic in late 1958. As the population of Kerguelen experienced a significant increase in the second half of the 20th century, the financial burden of maintaining the territory became unsustainable for France, leading to a decision to relinquish control (in a sense, France kicked them out). Nevertheless, a considerable portion of Kerguelen's population felt neglected by the French government and believed that greater autonomy, or even full independence, could address their concerns. By 1960, there was already a growing movement advocating for self-determination and self-governance among the island's residents.

Ah I see, thanks for answering. All makes complete sense. I imagine there's a bit of acrimony/antagonism in French-Kerguelean relations? But then also they are probably quite close being the only majority "European" Francophone countries.

6.

Love it!! A fascinating organisation to be sure. I do wonder with Kerguelen as being "technically" part of the continent of Antarctica what impact that would have on the whole Antarctic claims and whether the OTL Treaty system would emerge... looking forward to more

 

[naraht]

My question about the Antarctic claims is whether Kerguelen took France's claims with them when they left.

 

[Substantial_Habit_94]

My question about the Antarctic claims is whether Kerguelen took France's claims with them when they left.

France actually still has its Antarctic claims, Kerguelen's were established shortly after independence and cover the lands between 45º and 90º meridians east, overlaping with the Australian ones partly.

 

[Alexios_Comnenos]

I agree with the general sentiment here, I love this idea and all your world building work, it's really nice and impressive! Kerguelen at its full potential would have really changed a lot of things...
I have a few questions about this version of Kerguelen
1) What is the place of religion in society? Has Kerguelen retained a strict French-style secularism, or is the place given to faith more important?
2) Is Kerguelen a rather conservative nation, or a progressive one, on issues such as abortion or gay marriage for example?
3) What is the image of Kerguelen in France? Is it an expatriation destination for a lot of French people, like Quebec OTL?

 

[Substantial_Habit_94]

I agree with the general sentiment here, I love this idea and all your world building work, it's really nice and impressive! Kerguelen at its full potential would have really changed a lot of things...

Thanks a lot!

1) What is the place of religion in society? Has Kerguelen retained a strict French-style secularism, or is the place given to faith more important?

Yeah, Kerguelen is a secular state, and the constitution protects citizens' right to practice their religion as they please. The role of the church is very limited, the church owns several private education center, but further than that not much. The majority of the population is Christian (around 65%), catholicism is the predominant denomination, followed by different protestant ones (anglicanism, calvinism...). Biggest minority religions are Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism. According to the last census, however, 32% of the population didn't follow any religion, and church attendance was among the lowest on the world.

2) Is Kerguelen a rather conservative nation, or a progressive one, on issues such as abortion or gay marriage for example?

Yes, Kerguelean society is a bit more conservative than average but nothing too crazy. For instance, immigration is a very delicate topic with lots of restrictions and checks, gay marriage is legal since 2015, and abortions are permitted but restricted to cases in which the woman's life or health is at risk, rape, or fetal impairment.

3) What is the image of Kerguelen in France? Is it an expatriation destination for a lot of French people, like Quebec OTL?

Overall the image and relationship with France is quite good. Kerguelen has maintained a close relationship with France since independence. Most foreign born residents in Kerguelen are French; and cultural, linguistic, and historical ties are still very strong. There are also loads of french tv shows, music, news, etc that get to Kerguelen.

 

[naraht]

France actually still has its Antarctic claims, Kerguelen's were established shortly after independence and cover the lands between 45º and 90º meridians east, overlaping with the Australian ones partly.

That leads to some issues. You've said that Kerguelen's independence was in 1961, I think. That is *after* the Antarctic Treaty System was signed iOTL and as such, countries would not have claimed afterwards...

 

[Substantial_Habit_94]

That leads to some issues. You've said that Kerguelen's independence was in 1961, I think. That is *after* the Antarctic Treaty System was signed iOTL and as such, countries would not have claimed afterwards...

Yes, the Antarctic Treaty was initially signed on December 1, 1959, and ratified on June 23, 1961, predating both Kerguelen's independence and the declaration of the Kerguelen Antarctic Territories. France, however, was a signatory to the treaty and, in this alternate timeline, had already claimed all Antarctic land between meridians 45º and 90º (Amery Land) and between meridians 136º and 142º east (Adélie Land) by 1955. After Kerguelen's independence, part of France's Antarctic claims was transferred to Kerguelen, similar to what Britain did with Australia in 1933.

Under the Antarctic Treaty, no new territorial claims can be made in Antarctica, and existing claims are not recognized as assertions of sovereignty. The treaty effectively prohibits any further claims of sovereignty in the region. However, the Antarctic Treaty does not specifically address the transfer of existing territorial claims. The original claimant countries maintain their claims, but these claims are not widely recognized as valid expressions of sovereignty. Instead, the treaty system emphasizes the use of Antarctica for peaceful purposes, scientific research, and international cooperation. So, technically it is possible for a country to transfer its territorial claim to another country.

 

[naraht]

Yes, the Antarctic Treaty was initially signed on December 1, 1959, and ratified on June 23, 1961, predating both Kerguelen's independence and the declaration of the Kerguelen Antarctic Territories. France, however, was a signatory to the treaty and, in this alternate timeline, had already claimed all Antarctic land between meridians 45º and 90º (Amery Land) and between meridians 136º and 142º east (Adélie Land) by 1955. After Kerguelen's independence, part of France's Antarctic claims was transferred to Kerguelen, similar to what Britain did with Australia in 1933.

Under the Antarctic Treaty, no new territorial claims can be made in Antarctica, and existing claims are not recognized as assertions of sovereignty. The treaty effectively prohibits any further claims of sovereignty in the region. However, the Antarctic Treaty does not specifically address the transfer of existing territorial claims. The original claimant countries maintain their claims, but these claims are not widely recognized as valid expressions of sovereignty. Instead, the treaty system emphasizes the use of Antarctica for peaceful purposes, scientific research, and international cooperation. So, technically it is possible for a country to transfer its territorial claim to another country.

Hmm. The UK agreed to non-overlapping claims with France iOTL, I wonder iTTL whether France and the UK still do so with the UK/Australia giving up on some (all) of Amery Land. Doubt it would affect relations between the two countries much.
There are nations that I could easily seem butterfly traps on in regards to this world. If you told me that Uzbekistan's borders were exactly the same and the same person is President, fine.
However, I am curious as to the effects in this world on Madagascar. Obviously Kerguelen and neighbors aren't part of the French Madagascar as in this world, and I'm guessing France still wants to grab it, but any other ideas? (I have to imagine there was a decent amount of emigration from Madagascar to Kerguelen during the Mining boom.

 

[Substantial_Habit_94]

 

[LeinadB93]

Here's the QBAM patch for Kerguelen:

Spoiler

 

[shearsforest]

Here's the QBAM patch for Kerguelen:

Spoiler

What's with the red where the OTL islands are?

 

[LeinadB93]

What's with the red where the OTL islands are?

Whoops, that was meant to be to help line it up on the OTL map (I left it in from the versions before I did the Antarctic claims).

 

[Alexios_Comnenos]

Fascinating ! Am I right in assuming that the majority of native Algerians in Kerguelen are Pieds-Noirs ? Is the presence of Chinese and Indian communities ancient, as on Réunion, or more recent ?

 

[Substantial_Habit_94]

Fascinating ! Am I right in assuming that the majority of native Algerians in Kerguelen are Pieds-Noirs ? Is the presence of Chinese and Indian communities ancient, as on Réunion, or more recent ?

Indeed, most Algerian-born Kerguelen residents are Pied-Noirs that left Algeria in the 60's. Chinese and Indian communities are much more recient in Kerguelen compared to Reunion or Mauritius. Most Asian migrants began to arrive after Kerguelen's independence, especially in the 2000's and 2010's.

 

[Substantial_Habit_94]