Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[Look More Closely Later]

You need to get the oil both West and North from the Maikop fields, let alone the ones on the Caspian Sea. Local use is ideal but you don't have that much need for that in the area once they are secured, you have other places that need the fuel also, remember oil is not just used by the aircraft, tanks and trucks on the Eastern Front. You have lots of need from the Bay of Biscay all the way to the front lines in the East and have to provide it in a timely manner.

Flying there to attack the area is not a problem because of the mountains. The 15th Airforce flew missions all the time to Austria, Central Germany and Northern Italy that crossed the different Alp ranges among others. You don't have to have a full airforce hitting the area, even bomber command with night mission should be able to find the area that is need to be hit. This is a classic area strategic attack and you would force the Luftwaffe to transfer their fighter aircraft to the area to defend it. Remember the Allies are adding more bombers a month than the Germans are adding fighers and pilots.

Checking an atlas, I get the impression that the Greater Caucasus main ridgeline could be several hundred metres higher than the main Alps ridgeline. I don't know if it's enough to make a difference to a 1942 bomber hauling a full bomb-load but a potential issue could be there.

 

[AlanL]

Checking an atlas, I get the impression that the Greater Caucasus main ridgeline could be several hundred metres higher than the main Alps ridgeline. I don't know if it's enough to make a difference to a 1942 bomber hauling a full bomb-load but a potential issue could be there.

Baku, however, is not only south of the Caucasus main ridgeline but also on a rather prominent coastal peninsula that even a 1942 Bomber Command navigator should be able to find.

 

[jlckansas]

Checking an atlas, I get the impression that the Greater Caucasus main ridgeline could be several hundred metres higher than the main Alps ridgeline. I don't know if it's enough to make a difference to a 1942 bomber hauling a full bomb-load but a potential issue could be there.

You also don't have to fly the straight route to the target but are able to go over Soviet territory, or even cut through Turkey if needed, to attack from different directions.

 

[pjmidd]

You need to get the oil both West and North from the Maikop fields, let alone the ones on the Caspian Sea. Local use is ideal but you don't have that much need for that in the area once they are secured, you have other places that need the fuel also, remember oil is not just used by the aircraft, tanks and trucks on the Eastern Front. You have lots of need from the Bay of Biscay all the way to the front lines in the East and have to provide it in a timely manner.

Flying there to attack the area is not a problem because of the mountains. The 15th Airforce flew missions all the time to Austria, Central Germany and Northern Italy that crossed the different Alp ranges among others. You don't have to have a full airforce hitting the area, even bomber command with night mission should be able to find the area that is need to be hit. This is a classic area strategic attack and you would force the Luftwaffe to transfer their fighter aircraft to the area to defend it. Remember the Allies are adding more bombers a month than the Germans are adding fighers and pilots.

Bigger problem is crude oil is no use if you don't have a working refinery. So even local use is just not possible, the crude has to go back to at least Romania to be turned into anything useful.

 

[Monty Man]

Krasnodar was a refinery, one of Soviet's largest and captured OTL.

 

[Merrick]

Bigger problem is crude oil is no use if you don't have a working refinery. So even local use is just not possible, the crude has to go back to at least Romania to be turned into anything useful.

WWII-era practice was to refine the oil close to the well and then transport the refined products. So the Soviet oil refineries were in the Caucasus, mostly at Baku. Of course, whether they would be still usable after capture is another question.

 

[pjmidd]

WWII-era practice was to refine the oil close to the well and then transport the refined products. So the Soviet oil refineries were in the Caucasus, mostly at Baku. Of course, whether they would be still usable after capture is another question.

Given the Soviets were practicing scorched earth and had everything wired up ready, getting a working refinery is pretty much ASB. The fields they did overrun OTL were basically in a state that put them months minimum away from being able to produce meaningful amounts of crude let alone products.

 

[diesal]

Bigger problem is crude oil is no use if you don't have a working refinery. So even local use is just not possible, the crude has to go back to at least Romania to be turned into anything useful.

Azeri crude is very light api gravity of about 35 and so would be very simple to refine by fractional distillation it would not require any specialised refining as is needed with heavier grade crudes. It might even be possible to run diesels on it directly if you weren’t to fussed about engine life.

 

[wietze]

Azeri crude is very light api gravity of about 35 and so would be very simple to refine by fractional distillation it would not require any specialised refining as is needed with heavier grade crudes. It might even be possible to run diesels on it directly if you weren’t to fussed about engine life.

early diesels are probably just fine, considering you can run older diesel cars (the ones without complicated injection systems, roughly the pre-2000 models) on vegetable oil

 

[Ramontxo]

The important question is not if the Germans can get the Oil. It would be nice yes but the Million Dollar question is, can they stop the Russians getting it?

 

[MattII]

The important question is not if the Germans can get the Oil. It would be nice yes but the Million Dollar question is, can they stop the Russians getting it?

That is indeed the big question. If they can, that will mean having to import even more oil from the USA, which will reduce their importing of other stuff.

 

[Ramontxo]

That is indeed the big question. If they can, that will mean having to import even more oil from the USA, which will reduce their importing of other stuff.

OTL they only imported high octane oil and other special products. Without the Baku oil they are in an world of hurt

 

[Sqdn19]

Azeri crude is very light api gravity of about 35 and so would be very simple to refine by fractional distillation it would not require any specialised refining as is needed with heavier grade crudes. It might even be possible to run diesels on it directly if you weren’t to fussed about engine life.

Diesel engines, or diesal engines?

 

[mafio ball]

The Ostwehr mainly needed gasoline (of various types), diesel fuel was not the main fuel of the ground or air forces.
So the oil refineries are necessary so that the Germans can use any "Russian" oil on the eastern front...
It is possible that they will occupy the refinery intact, but I do not believe that they would put it into operation in a reasonable time. (among other things, they would lack qualified personnel)

 

[Monty Man]

I'll say it one last time. Rommel was not a great general. Eating carrots did not help RAF Pilots see in the dark. Russian oil fields and refineries were not destroyed beyond repair. That so little oil and refined products were taken was mostly because they were only held a few months before retreat from the Caucasus.

 

[pjmidd]

I'll say it one last time. Rommel was not a great general. Eating carrots did not help RAF Pilots see in the dark. Russian oil fields and refineries were not destroyed beyond repair. That so little oil and refined products were taken was mostly because they were only held a few months before retreat from the Caucasus.

The first two are right, the third is a laugh. There is/was an oilfield at Romny, which is located around 200km East of Kiev. So far nearer to German logistics than the Caucasus. The Germans held it for around two years but despite that never got it back into anything like full production. Indeed it took them over a year to really get anything bar a nominal amount out. The Soviets when it came to sabotaging oilfields really knew what they were doing ( pouring concrete down wells as well as removing/blowing up stuff ).

 

[Garrison]

I'll say it one last time. Rommel was not a great general. Eating carrots did not help RAF Pilots see in the dark. Russian oil fields and refineries were not destroyed beyond repair. That so little oil and refined products were taken was mostly because they were only held a few months before retreat from the Caucasus.

Well if you mean that with a few years and no interruptions German industry might have been able to produce the equipment to restore them, then yes. If you mean they could have actually made them productive during the war then I really don't see it.

 

[Derek Pullem]

I'll say it one last time. Rommel was not a great general. Eating carrots did not help RAF Pilots see in the dark. Russian oil fields and refineries were not destroyed beyond repair. That so little oil and refined products were taken was mostly because they were only held a few months before retreat from the Caucasus.

cant check all the figures in this article but it sounds like he's done his homework.

https://en.topwar.ru/174335-pravda-o-zahvachennoj-majkopskoj-nefti.html

Germans managed to put about 1 per cent of Maikop production into service, less of refined products after the Russians had left. Almost 2 years later the Russians had increased this to 20per cent.

 

[diesal]

Depending on reservoir pressures, the attempts to abandon these wells could be reversed fairly quickly if the Germans had been able to prioritise them. It is unlikely that the soviets would have had much time to damage downhole components and so restoration would largely consist of patching any surface damage to liners and casing drilling out cement and then installing new wellheads. Each well would have to be assessed on a case by case basis but if you assumed 21 days from rig up to rig down per well you would probably be in a pretty good place.
Additional wells could also have been drilled in the area fairly easily, the top reservoir is only at about 500m tvd so it would be easy to get at. Had it been held longer there is no reason to assume it would not have been a useful additional source of hydrocarbons.

 

[pjmidd]

Depending on reservoir pressures, the attempts to abandon these wells could be reversed fairly quickly if the Germans had been able to prioritise them. It is unlikely that the soviets would have had much time to damage downhole components and so restoration would largely consist of patching any surface damage to liners and casing drilling out cement and then installing new wellheads. Each well would have to be assessed on a case by case basis but if you assumed 21 days from rig up to rig down per well you would probably be in a pretty good place.
Additional wells could also have been drilled in the area fairly easily, the top reservoir is only at about 500m tvd so it would be easy to get at. Had it been held longer there is no reason to assume it would not have been a useful additional source of hydrocarbons.

That's a lot of specialised kit and engineers being handwaved into existence. Even the Soviets did not get the fields back to more than 20% after 2 years, and they had far easier access to personnel and equipment than the Germans would have.