Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

There's plenty of rubber plantations in Malaya whose products can be sold to the Americans to reduce the amount owed.
Lots of GI - Overpaid, overhere and oversexed.

I
If that would be enough tanks to equip 6 ETO Tank divisions, x number of Army tank Brigades with the then required number of British tanks - I don't know?
It's about right. Especially if you extend to 44. Need a lot for spares/ pool/ training/ transit but if you're not shipping them to Tobruk/ Rome too much then it builds up fast. A WWII British Armoured Division had around 250 to 400 ish Tanks. Now ITTL there's been some good work on making Armoured groups a bit more Panzer division like and balanced earlier on , vs 1939/40 Tank Corp with many more support vehicles,AAA, Infantry , Artillery etc so if we scale up to later in war we can probably average out better.

XXX Corp has a well documented OTL timeline and varied in strength/ divisions over it's long war. But at start of Market garden in late '44 it i had 2 Armoured Divisions -each fully ready to go, 11th and Guards. .One with 2 (11th) and one (Guards) with 3 Armoured brigades. Each Brigade has 2 Tank Regiments has about 100 (ish) operational tanks per regiment. Plus Michael Caine in a beret of course.

So 4,000 Valiant IIs and lets presume 2/3000 Victors by '44 is more than enough for 6 Armoured Divisions. My guess is in this scenario they would assign all Shermans to at least one Division and / or Canadians. Who, like WW1, kicked ass all over France. Politely. and in French when required, of course.

ITTL Brits could even operate all 6 Divisions with 3 Tank Brigades each. Trouble is I have a feeling they may be in action sooner in Iran/ USSR ITTL . The number of Tanks produced vs. number actually capable of being fielded at any one time that make a difference is vastly different. Hence my obsession with the impact of 400 + extra German tanks at Kharkov in May '42......
 
if it’s US supplied rail transport supplied rather than tanks, the UK rail network is fucked post war. We can’t chuck them over a bridge rather than pay for them.
In OTL they were all re-exported to Europe which needed them even worse. So getting rid of them is easy, if you can replace them.

Not clear to me - have the locomotive works shifted over wholesale or just partially? Because they built 1085 WD 2-8-0 and 2-10-0 locomotives from 1943 onwards, and before that were still making a lot of locomotives while presumably also building tanks. 483 Stanier 8Fs, for instance, were built prior to construction switching to very similar WD Austerity types in 1943 - quite a few of which were from Vulcan or North British.

And it's worth noting that North British are making Tetrach in modest numbers while Vulcan are mentioned as being part of the Nuffield ring that is winding down and look likely to be raided for staff to support a new Vickers factory rather than making tanks themselves. I think there's a good chance that because of the way the increase in tank production has been handled the railway locomotive building capacity won't be crippled.
Note also that
 
Lots of GI - Overpaid, overhere and oversexed.

I

It's about right. Especially if you extend to 44. Need a lot for spares/ pool/ training/ transit but if you're not shipping them to Tobruk/ Rome too much then it builds up fast. A WWII British Armoured Division had around 250 to 400 ish Tanks. Now ITTL there's been some good work on making Armoured groups a bit more Panzer division like and balanced earlier on , vs 1939/40 Tank Corp with many more support vehicles,AAA, Infantry , Artillery etc so if we scale up to later in war we can probably average out better.

XXX Corp has a well documented OTL timeline and varied in strength/ divisions over it's long war. But at start of Market garden in late '44 it i had 2 Armoured Divisions -each fully ready to go, 11th and Guards. .One with 2 (11th) and one (Guards) with 3 Armoured brigades. Each Brigade has 2 Tank Regiments has about 100 (ish) operational tanks per regiment. Plus Michael Caine in a beret of course.

So 4,000 Valiant IIs and lets presume 2/3000 Victors by '44 is more than enough for 6 Armoured Divisions. My guess is in this scenario they would assign all Shermans to at least one Division and / or Canadians. Who, like WW1, kicked ass all over France. Politely. and in French when required, of course.

ITTL Brits could even operate all 6 Divisions with 3 Tank Brigades each. Trouble is I have a feeling they may be in action sooner in Iran/ USSR ITTL . The number of Tanks produced vs. number actually capable of being fielded at any one time that make a difference is vastly different. Hence my obsession with the impact of 400 + extra German tanks at Kharkov in May '42......
I suspect that by 1944 the British Army tank Division will be as follows with essentially 1 Armor Brigade of 3 battalions, 1 Recce Battalion (often same tanks), 1 armoured car battalion (often belonging to the parent Corps), 1 Mechanised (rifle) and 3 motor infantry Battalions plus supporting arms.

armddiv.jpg


So (from here) 343 tanks; 223 cruisers, 25 anti-aircraft tanks, 24 close support tanks, 63 light tanks, and 8 Observation tanks

Later on the last implementation turned the Armoured Recce Rgt into a 4th Armd Rgt and the 'Guards armoured' method was used - that is pairing an Armd Rgt with an Inf Rgt and creating effectively 4 smaller combined arms Brigades although this was not fully implemented until May 45

But the total number of AFVs for those 6 Divisions would be 2,058 tanks of all types of which 1138 are cruisers or in TTL case the latest Vickers Tank

That does not include the army tank Brigades which OTL used the Churchill - and in 1944 there was about 7 Brigades (5 NWE and 2 Italy) each with 240 tanks (including light, Observation, howitzer etc) so another 1,680 tanks

And obviously does not include efforts elsewhere such as the far east and pacific

And I am not sure how the 'light tank' will progress ITTL and they might simply become more mediums/cruisers of the same design?

That does not take into account wastage through combat and training.

A tank in late WW2 is good for as little as 6 months before requiring a rebuild at a factory or well equipped workshop and given the pace of tank development it might simply be placed into reserve training etc with the owning unit getting a more modern version or even a better tank.

For example the British built about 3000 A27 Cromwell's in the space of a year but only 1 full division (7th) was able to be equipped with them along with several Recce Regiments in other Divisions

So the required tank production effort is going to be several times what the actual front line strength is for those 6 Divisions and 7 Tank Brigades

And to put that into Context 17000 Sherman's were supplied to the British Commonwealth in WW2 from 1942 - and from memory about 6000 odd were used in the ETO

So my finger in the air is that the British army will need to produce about 9000 'Cruisers' and 3000 odd Infantry tanks to fully equip those 6 Divisions and 7 Tank Brigades for the ETO effort Jan 1944 to end of war.
 
Allan's US Post is sublime.

Allan - you are killing me - What is happening in Kharkov? VK20/ 30 early? 4th Luft?)
Thanks.
Kharkov's update is dated 9 June, so it is written and coming.
Regarding the VK 20/40, I think the Germans are still going to develop much as OTL, just as the Americans have (so far). The reason being that nothing much has changed so far: They've encountered Matildas and French B1bis, British Valiants, now T34s and KV1s. The learning is all the same, the enemy have strongly armoured tanks, so we need a bigger and better gun. The long 75mm and the 88mm are the obvious solutions, and they need to be as well protected as the enemy, which can't be presumed not to have a bigger and better guns in production too. So Panther and Tiger are logical outcomes from the current evidence.
Not sure about 4th Luftflotte, except Crimea campaign is the primary (German) beneficiary of the withdrawal of the Luftwaffe from the Mediterranean.
Allan
 
I assume that the Major Becker element of OTL AFV development, i.e. the Marder family of re-purposed and up-gunned AFVs, exists ITTL. But, if earlier campaigns have proceeded differently, it would seem that smaller numbers of recoverable AFVs would have been captured to be re-purposed, and guns to mount on those AFVs. If that was the case, what has Germany done to make up for the fewer Marder-type vehicles available to them?
 
Thanks. They encountered them much earlier though and took a pasting. Charging fast Valiants breaking Dunkirk and of course North Africa. Has to pull their timeline forward even if same path
 
I assume that the Major Becker element of OTL AFV development, i.e. the Marder family of re-purposed and up-gunned AFVs, exists ITTL. But, if earlier campaigns have proceeded differently, it would seem that smaller numbers of recoverable AFVs would have been captured to be re-purposed, and guns to mount on those AFVs. If that was the case, what has Germany done to make up for the fewer Marder-type vehicles available to them?
The Marder I was based on the Lorraine 37L, the II on the Panzer II, and the III on the Panzer 38(t), so the official Marders should have been too heavily affected by earlier developments.
 
The Marder I was based on the Lorraine 37L, the II on the Panzer II, and the III on the Panzer 38(t), so the official Marders should have been too heavily affected by earlier developments.

Given the greater thread of heavy armoured allied tanks, I think that the work on the Marders will be rushed forward as fast as possible. However the small nature of the re-purposed tanks limits the size of the gun that can be fitted. I think that the Germans will go for more Nashorn instead. The 88mm gun has no problems as yet with the british tanks other than its hight and mobility. The Nashorn takes care of the mobility and an good crew takes care of the hight problem
 

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The Marder I was based on the Lorraine 37L, the II on the Panzer II, and the III on the Panzer 38(t), so the official Marders should have been too heavily affected by earlier developments.

Given the greater thread of heavy armoured allied tanks, I think that the work on the Marders will be rushed forward as fast as possible. However the small nature of the re-purposed tanks limits the size of the gun that can be fitted. I think that the Germans will go for more Nashorn instead. The 88mm gun has no problems as yet with the british tanks other than its hight and mobility. The Nashorn takes care of the mobility and an good crew takes care of the hight problem
Nashorn is likely - an early Jagdpanzer IV with the long 75mm is also possible but IOTL the Nashorn was the quicker to production and I don't see the reasons for changes yet. May even skip to Ferdinand / Elephant directly if experience with the Victor suggests the 75mm won't cut it.

EDIT: actually Germany won't get to see the Victor until the next major campaign (Vichy North Africa? Sicily?) If Sicily or similar is delayed until 1943 and Vichy North Africa folds without a fight then Victor will be a nasty surprise and to a large extent the Germans won't have the chance to evaluate it in time to change their OTL tank destroyer and tank design strategy which will be driven by their Russian experiences (who will be using Valiants)
 
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That is true unless their agents get a look at the Victor which isn't likely given how the German Network was turned on its head in Britain by British Intelligence with things like Double Cross they aren't really going to know much about British Tank Development until they run into it. They were also pretty dismissive of th Valiants as well if I remember correctly.
 
if it’s US supplied rail transport supplied rather than tanks, the UK rail network is fucked post war. We can’t chuck them over a bridge rather than pay for them.
It might be worth it. If nothing else, it would prevent British Rail’s “modernisation programme” destroying steam locomotion while doing nothing for the rolling stock or passenger comfort. It might even force Dr (buying shares in road builders) Beeching to consider rail a service if he’s got a massive sunk cost in US Steam locomotives.
 
That is true unless their agents get a look at the Victor which isn't likely given how the German Network was turned on its head in Britain by British Intelligence with things like Double Cross they aren't really going to know much about British Tank Development until they run into it. They were also pretty dismissive of th Valiants as well if I remember correctly.
Unless someone decides it would be cute to feed the Abwehr the details of the failed designs as the successful ones, leaving the Germans to develop their tanks to counter the wrong threat?
 
TTL instead we might see this latter decision made instead with US made "Locomotives and rolling stock" produced along with fewer British Lend Lease AFVs sent to Russia (as mentioned in the last update US tanks to be sent instead directly from the USA).
Interesting idea. They would , of course have to build them to a smaller loading gauge, because, unlike tanks, locomotives and rolling stock have to fit the railways!
 

Mark1878

Donor
It might be worth it. If nothing else, it would prevent British Rail’s “modernisation programme” destroying steam locomotion while doing nothing for the rolling stock or passenger comfort. It might even force Dr (buying shares in road builders) Beeching to consider rail a service if he’s got a massive sunk cost in US Steam locomotives.
Sunk costs do not matter only future costs and benefits. It is perfectly good business to throw away a nearly new machine if the replacement will be cheaper over time. Obviously better to get a price for the older machinery if you can sell it.

The "modernisation program" could be avoided and that is good but I don't see how that affects the passenger rolling stock.

Beeching will still happen as BR do not have any accounts that say what is making a profit and what makes a loss.
 
Interesting idea. They would , of course have to build them to a smaller loading gauge, because, unlike tanks, locomotives and rolling stock have to fit the railways!
Well, IOTL, the USATC did managed to supply S160s, which are able to fit in the British loading gauge,there should be a need to create different designs to cater to different needs...(and I have mixed feeling on whether the British loco builders would willingly outsource the production and giving their design and blueprints to the Americans....)...but the main problem is...IIRC...most of the locos are designs to be build quickly, not for long-term operation....

In a way...doing this could bring some problems if the locomotives aren't able to be operate long enough and to be scrapped before 1955 (which IOTL when the *sadly flawed* Modernisation Plan being introduced)...

One thing for sure though...
if it’s US supplied rail transport supplied rather than tanks, the UK heritage rail network is fucked...
due to the fact those locomotive are hard to maintain (and thus straining the finances) and IMO looks ugly when compared to contemporary British design, which could probably scared the potential visitor way.../s
 
Well, IOTL, the USATC did managed to supply S160s, which are able to fit in the British loading gauge,there should be a need to create different designs to cater to different needs...(and I have mixed feeling on whether the British loco builders would willingly outsource the production and giving their design and blueprints to the Americans....)...but the main problem is...IIRC...most of the locos are designs to be build quickly, not for long-term operation....

In a way...doing this could bring some problems if the locomotives aren't able to be operate long enough and to be scrapped before 1955 (which IOTL when the *sadly flawed* Modernisation Plan being introduced)...

One thing for sure though...

due to the fact those locomotive are hard to maintain (and thus straining the finances) and IMO looks ugly when compared to contemporary British design, which could probably scared the potential visitor way.../s
Post war Britain may be a very different place; the war may be shorter, and Britain's position in the world may be stronger. We may not - will not almost by definition have the same governments in power and the same policies enacted. Beware (as I have pointed out in other threads!) the use of the definite article about future events.
 
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