Ever since Henri's death in 1883, the Spanish Bourbons have held one of the claims to the French throne. In an atl where France avoids it's disastrous 18th century, was it likely for the French Bourbons to die out? If the main line does extinguish, does the throne go to the closest French claimant or would the Spanish Bourbons come into play? If the Spanish line wins out, what would be the odds of a union between the French and Spanish empires and it's effects for on the 20th century?
 
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Likely the parliaments would try to find a way to seperate them, it would also be unpopular in time of nationalism to be ruled by someone viewed as foreign (this does not mean it will inevitably fail but it will be a challenge.)
 
Likely the parliaments would try to find a way to seperate them, it would also be unpopular in time of nationalism to be ruled by someone viewed as foreign (this does not mean it will inevitably fail but it will be a challenge.)
Separate the crowns or the Bourbons?
 
The problem with the Spanish Bourbons taking the crown of France, legally they couldn’t, due to Philip V relinquishing his right of succession to crown of France to become the King of Spain. You would need to amend that law before a Spanish Bourbon takes the throne of France
 
The problem with the Spanish Bourbons taking the crown of France, legally they couldn’t, due to Philip V relinquishing his right of succession to crown of France to become the King of Spain. You would need to amend that law before a Spanish Bourbon takes the throne of France
So what branch does the crown go to? How close were the Orleans?
 
So what branch does the crown go to? How close were the Orleans?
The House of Orléans was founded Philippe I, Duke of Orléans, who was the younger brother of Louis XIV. So the House of Orléans and Main branch of the main House of Bourbon were practically really close yet distant relatives
 
The House of Orléans was founded Philippe I, Duke of Orléans, who was the younger brother of Louis XIV. So the House of Orléans and Main branch of the main House of Bourbon were practically really close yet distant relatives
So if anything happened to the main line would the Orleans be the new dynasty or was there an even closer branch?
 
So if anything happened to the main line would the Orleans be the new dynasty or was there an even closer branch?
From what I read, yes. After Henri “I gave up the throne of France for a Flag” Count of Chambord death in 1883, this left the Legitimatists in confusion, and caused a split between those who turned to the House of Orléans and the Spanish Bourbons (Who’s pretender was also the pretender to the Carlist line)
 
The problem with the Spanish Bourbons taking the crown of France, legally they couldn’t, due to Philip V relinquishing his right of succession to crown of France to become the King of Spain. You would need to amend that law before a Spanish Bourbon takes the throne of France
He relinquished HIS rights not that of his line's
 
Before continuing I just want to briefly go back to the first part of the question; if France does better in the 18th century and avoids the revolution, than how likely would it be for the French Bourbons to die out in the late 19th century?
 
Before continuing I just want to briefly go back to the first part of the question; if France does better in the 18th century and avoids the revolution, than how likely would it be for the French Bourbons to die out in the late 19th century?
Well due to butterflies and stuff anything can happen. OTL they died out in the 19th century but had a backup line in the form of the Orleans. On the other side the Spanish Bourbons have historically NEVER had issues with fertility or with having male children, save for Ferdinand VII but he had two healthy daughters and several healthy brothers that could inherit.
 
The problem with the Spanish Bourbons taking the crown of France, legally they couldn’t, due to Philip V relinquishing his right of succession to crown of France to become the King of Spain. You would need to amend that law before a Spanish Bourbon takes the throne of France
The classic objection to this is that the French kings are divinely anointed, and man cannot undo what God hath done, so that renunciation is void. (This is the line used by Legitimists even today; not that I support it, but this is what would be claimed by any descendent of Philip V).

The dearth of Bourbons in the 1880s does not have too much to do with the “bad 18th century“ in France (this was not a particularly bad century for Frenchmen anyway, since the French territory then had one of its longest streaks without any major wars fought on it, and economic growth was quite good) — the mortality rate during the 18th century is quite at par with other dynasties (Spanish Hapsburgs, Medici, Bavarian Wittelsbach etc. went extinct during that century); even though the Révolution itself did remove one Bourbon heir (Louis Capet's son), Marie-Antoinette was 37 when guillotined and so somewhat unlikely to make many more heirs (the previous queen, Marie Leszczynka, had her last (and tenth!) child at 34).
 
The problem with the Spanish Bourbons taking the crown of France, legally they couldn’t, due to Philip V relinquishing his right of succession to crown of France to become the King of Spain. You would need to amend that law before a Spanish Bourbon takes the throne of France
That's true. However, given the fact that France manages somehow to avoid the French Revolution or the rise of Napoleon, there could be a way in which a Spanish Bourbon succession to the French Crown could be possible.

As to the question of nationalism, keep in mind that it was the French Revolution that first created the idea of a nationalism that was more than merely loyalty to a dynasty orcommon culture...and Napoleon who then exported it to the rest of Europe. Granted the United States had declared its independence from Britain back in 1776, but that could've easily been dismissed as simply a desire of the colonials to force a change in British policy, not a drive to create a new nation. If you have no French Revolution-and hence no Napoleon, then the idea of a Spanish dynasty ruling France-personal union or not-would be as common as an Austrian dynasty ruling Spain back in the Middle Ages.
 
The problem with the Spanish Bourbons taking the crown of France, legally they couldn’t, due to Philip V relinquishing his right of succession to crown of France to become the King of Spain. You would need to amend that law before a Spanish Bourbon takes the throne of France
It seems like the solution to this writes itself: have France come out clearly on top during the War of the Spanish Succession. With a clear enough victory, the Grand Alliance will not be able to force Phillip's renunciation of the French throne.
 

marktaha

Banned
Obviously major European power - what difference would it have made to the Napoleonic or Franco - Prussian Wars?
 
The problem with the Spanish Bourbons taking the crown of France, legally they couldn’t, due to Philip V relinquishing his right of succession to crown of France to become the King of Spain. You would need to amend that law before a Spanish Bourbon takes the throne of France
@Urbanus VII has pointed out the problem with this argument several times before IIRC
 
The discourse is (old and) always one: the "time" is what makes the difference.



Charles, Duke of Berry, had been named in the will of Charles II of Spain as the heir to the Crown of Spain; nevertheless, right of succession it could have been disputed because interpreted by some as valid ONLY with an «immediate» renunciation of succession to the Spanish throne by Philip, Duke of Anjou (therefore the Duke of Berry would not have right to succeed his brother as King of Spain at a later time).
At the same time, while Philip and his sons are alive, he does not have the right to succeed to the Crown of France (in THIS time!)

FIRST "time" discriminating: february-march 1712.
The death of Louis (XV) in february-march 1712, along with the rest of his immediate family, would changed the conditions of the Treaty of Utrecht (signed on 11 April 1713).
«The Fundamental Laws of the Kingdom» bla bla bla... ok. The Crown is not the personal property of the king: the king can not appoint his successor, or waive to the Crown, or abdicate.
Philip V had not right to dispose of the Crown of France, either for himself or for his descendants. A possible renunciation is not legitimate, it can not have legal force.
After the death of Louis (XV), Philip V of Spain becomes heir to the throne of France through the «collatéralité masculine»: in the absence of a male son, the Crown returns to the closest male relative of the King by virtue of the «continuité de la Couronne» (ou instantanéité de la Couronne: «Le roi est mort; vive le roi!»): when the king dies, his successor as soon as king «the king (the government) never dies» (« le roi [l’État] ne meurt jamais»).
The renunciation of Philip V of Spain: bla bla bla... (the renunciation, thus, is not legitimate, it can not have legal force. In France the renunciation is not became Fundamental Law of the Kingdom, because it was avoided to convene the Estates General to the ratified, deceiving the European diplomacy with a simple ratification by the Parliament of Paris (and of other provinces), which, as we know, was a "legal body", not "legislative". The ratification by the Parliament of Paris has a only mere value notarial. Philip V has never recognized the validity of renunciation signed under duress of the England: as a matter of fact, in 1726, he wrote to the Parliament of Paris to be proclaimed King, «in case of death of the King of France his nephew, by being he his successor to the crown by right of birth and by means the fundamental laws of the State, until he can take possession of the kingdom»).

In this hypothesis, the hypothetical Treaty of Utrecht would could to be different: Philip V of Spain at that time already had two sons and Queen Maria Luisa of Savoy was pregnant for the fourth time.
The Foreign Powers would probably have recognized his rights of succession to the Crown of France on condition that he would have to abdicate the Crown of Spain in favor of his second son (possible for the laws of succession of the Spanish kingdoms).

SECOND "time" discriminating: March 1713 (Treaty of Utrecht signed on 11 April 1713).
In Spain the Philip V's renunciations were made Fundamental Laws of the Kingdom by the same sovereign who convoked specifically for this the Cortes in March 1713. This means that, according to the spanish principles of legitimacy, no member of the descendants of Philip V has the right to the Throne of France.
If the renunciation was not declared Fundamental Law of the Kingdom, it could have been considered invalid the renunciation; but a Fundamental Law can be repealed only by the King and the Cortes.

Scilicet: in Spain only the King and the Cortes can cancel the renunciation allowing to a descendant of Philip V to claim the throne of France: by means of a dispensation from the King and the Cortes, an Infante (descendant of Philip V) could claim the throne of France (for this reason the Crown of France, in last nineteenth century, it's up indisputably and unquestionably to the Orléans; with the distinction between "famille et maison" (family and House) and "Couronne" (Crown): there is a clear distinction between the role of heir to the role of "Head of the House" and heir to the French throne).
Being Philip King of Spain, his choice regarding the succession to the French throne and his own rights to the crown itself, were a topic that concerned in the front line and directly the Spaniards and the Spanish Cortes, it is therefore right that they have legislated regarding this matter.

About the sources, the site of François Velde offers a precise look, concise and well documented on the Querelle de succession au trône de France.

The question of the role of Spanish Cortes is mentioned in the works of Walton, Dhondt, MacInnes, Williamson, etc., but you can simply write into Google "spanish+cortes+March+1713"...
The situation of succession in the first half of the nineteenth century was quite clear to everyone; the claims to the Crown of France came so striking when the throne was already gone. To understand this we must look to an event of OTL that sheds light on the issue of succession.
On 21 September 1824 King Charles X accorded to the Duke of Orléans the title of Royal Highness and conferred to the last of the Condé the title of Grand Master of France.
Charles X had thus affection for the Duke of Orleans, or at least self-interest for the good of France.

A bit of "color".
Since the Duke was only "His Most Serene Highness", when he was present at Court with his wife, the Duchess Marie-Amélie was announced for firstly with both doors of the salon open; when one door has been closed, the usher announced the Duke Louis-Philippe of Orléans.«Charles X fit dire par le grand maître des cérémonies qu'il avait donné ordre [...] de [...] effacer la fameuse et irritante distinction de la famille et de la maison, que Louis XVIII avait introduite et maintenue» (Antonetti).
The same situation of the Duchess of Angoulême, who before Louis XVIII's death, was more high-ranking than her husband, because she was daughter of a King (Louis XVI), and her husband was just only the nephew of the King: for example, when they were in front of a door, the duchess of Angoulême always was going before her husband (but with a slight difference with the Duke of Orléans, for the Duke of Angoulême the door was always completely open , because the rank difference was less distant between the Duchess and the Duke of Angoulême, daughter and nephew of Kings, while, on the other hand, between the Duchess Marie-Amélie and the Duke Louis-Philippe of Orléans the rank difference was greater, because she was daughter of a King, instead the duke was only a far descendant of Kings).

Also to bridge these differences in rank, five days after the death of Louis XVIII (16 September), after the accession to the throne, Charles X accorded the title of Royal Highness to Louis-Philippe and to all his children, and to Louis-Philippe's sister Adélaïde: when the Louis-Philippe himself said to the new king that Louis XVIII never wanted to bridge the gap, and Charles X responded: «I know. He had a little foible about this, some ideas which I don't think fair, but you must agree that your situation is a little awkward...» (from the "Journal" of the Duchess Marie-Amélie).
And also the King said: «Je trouve que c'est plus conforme à l'état des choses ici, plus encore à celui de l'Europe».
The Duke of Orléans, now at height desired of his desires, thanked Charles X with effusions, professing an obsequious and enthusiastic respect for the King: and from the law of the «milliard des émigrés» («billion to the émigrés», Act on the émigrés' billion), the millions of indemnity to the emigres, the duke drew 14 million of francs...

Why this act?

Charles X with this act attempted to unify the House of Bourbon, because with the assassination of the Duke of Berry the House of Orléans was more likely to succeed to the throne.
The King The king explained to the duke the three reasons for this gesture:
1. you [ought be able to] collect the succession without difficulty, without embarrassment.
2. you know that there are people who dream of the Spanish branch, I do not think many, but you take on guard.
3. I am willing to help you do my best. I wish to spare at the France the heartbreak that would cause to it.


Why these worries?
It was clear to them the distinction between "famille et maison" (family and House) and "Couronne" (Crown): there is a clear distinction between the role of heir to the role of "Head of the House" and heir to the French throne.

It is a mistake to consider as a "only one thing" the Throne of France and the direction of the House of Bourbon.
Moreover, it is a mistake to base this discussion on the Treaty of Utrecht, the terms of which, of course, do not represent a commitment/obligation «for nobody by long time, by the eighteenth century».
The renunciation of Philip V of Spain: a prince who renounces, acting spontaneously or forcedly, at his rights, in reality he can actually fulfill the renunciation only for himself and not for his descendants; it is still questionable if he can renounce for himself, when this renunciation could mean a damage for the country concerned.
While allowing the personal renunciation of a prince, the descendants of him could will always claim their rights. It can renounce at personal rights, not at rights over-personal.

The question is this:
+ in Spain the Philip V's renunciations were made Fundamental Laws of the Kingdom by the same sovereign who convoked specifically for this the Cortes in March 1713. This means that, according to the spanish principles of legitimacy, no member of the descendants of Philip V has the right to the Throne of France.
If the renunciation was not declared Fundamental Law of the Kingdom, it could have been considered invalid the renunciation; but a Fundamental Law can be repealed only by the King and the Cortes.
+ instead, in France the renunciation is not Fundamental Laws of the Kingdom, because it has avoided to bring together the States General to the ratified, and the European diplomacy gave for good the ratification by the Parliament of Paris, which, as we know, was a juridical corporation, not an assembly of the Kingdom (probably because misled by the similarity/assonance with the English "Parliament").
The ratification by the Parliament of Paris has a only mere value testamentary or notarial.

In Spain only the King and the Cortes can cancel the renunciation allowing to a descendant of Philip V to claim the throne of France: if the King and the Cortes dispense to the renunciation an Infante who descendant by Philip V, this Infante could claim the throne of France.
The Throne of France, thus, in early nineteenth century it's up indisputably and unquestionably to the Orléans.
on the other hand, it's well understood that they can not call themselves Heads of the House of Bourbon, as long as they persist lines descended from Philip V: with the extinction of the elder branch founded by Louis Duke of Burgundy, grandson of Louis XIV and elder brother of Philip V of Spain, the branch of the same Philip V becomes the elder/oldest branch of the House (la branche aînée).
At the Head of the House of Bourbon corresponds the mastership/command of the Dynastic Chivalric Orders, namely the Order of Saint Louis, the Order of Saint Michael and the Order of the Holy Spirit.
In addition, the renunciations do not prevent, then, to a Spanish prince to exercise the Regency of France (the same Philip V tried to exercise it clashing with the Duke of Orléans).

«Il faut convenir que votre position est délicate. [...] Il est important pour vous et pour nous que nous soyons bien unis» [for the reason that there was between the throne and the Duke of Orléans only the Duke of Bourdeaux, a four-year baby]; «Il nous importe et il vous importe encore plus que, dans le cas où [le duc de Bordeaux] viendrait à manquer, vous et les vôtres puissiez recueillir la succession sans difficultés, sans embarras. Vous savez bien qu'il y a des gens qui rêvent de la branche d'Espagne, je ne les crois pas nombreux, mais prenez-y garde. Il faut vous entendre avec nous pour étouffer cela. Moi je suis prêt à vous y aider de mon mieux. Je désire épargner à la France les déchirements que cela lui causerait» (cit. in Antonetti).



In Spain King Ferdinand VII of Spain was at his third marriage in 1820, and he has no children; the heir presumptive was at that time the King's brother, the Infante Carlos Isidro, already married since 1816; the other King's brother, the Infante Francisco de Paula married in 1819, then before of the assassination of the Duke of Berry.

Now, admitted that Ferdinand VII and the Cortes decide to free from the constraints explained above one of Infants, who to choose?
The Crown of France was most important and prominent over the Spanish crown?
If yes, Carlos Isidro had to give up the rights to the throne of Spain and to be chosen for the throne of France?
The Infante Francisco de Paula becomes heir presumptive to the Crown of Spain?
Or the opposite?
But in the latter case there would still be a division between the Head of the House of Bourbon and the Crown of France.
Idem for the sons of Carlos Isidro...

And why choose a Spanish prince to the crown of France?
In France was occurring in the public opinion and in the ideas of the politicians the division between "Fundamental Laws of the Kingdom", related to the Ancien Régime, and the new democratic convictions, liberal, directed at the conversion of the constitutional monarchy on a model more similar to British parliamentary model, with a king who reigns but does not govern (under Louis XVIII, for example, the Chamber of Deputies proposed amending Salic law to allow the Duchess of Angoulême to accede to the throne: Fundamental Laws of the Kingdom, Rest in Peace).
And then, in the 1820s Charles X has sixty years and the Duke of Angoulême not yet fifty, that is to say two possible reigns that will last at least another thirty years. The choice of an heir could still be postponed and, who knows, Charles X could procrastinate while waiting that events lead to a solution.
From the words spoken to the Duke of Orléans, mentioned above, and the choices made also in OTL during the July Revolution, it is understood that Charles X wanted to avoid civil war.
The choice of a Spanish prince, although freed from the King of Spain and by the Cortes of his unavailability, would not find acceptance in most of the public and politicians more democratic and liberal, on the contrary it would lend the side by Republicans and Bonapartists, seen as the only hope to avoid chaos and civil war.
Even for the supporters of a constitutional monarchy, democratic and liberal, the choice could only fall back, in any case, over the Duke of Orléans.
I therefore think that waiting to see how events were going waiting to choose an heir, Charles X would have behaved in the same way of OTL with the same results politicians.
A possible difference with the OTL is that on 31 July 1830 the liberal deputies with the aid of La Fayette have suppressed immediately the republican insurrection in Paris and they have proclaimed Louis-Philippe of Orléans not Lieutenant Général du Royaume but immediatly king.

No? Your opinions?

The year 1712 was a «terrible» year.
The Year 1712 was a leap year starting on Friday: double misfortune?
It's a "double" leap year in the Swedish calendar, with Friday, February 30.

A summary of the facts that interest us:

29 January 1712 - the Congress of Utrecht opened;
John Robinson (7 November 1650 – 11 April 1723), Bishop of Bristol, Lord Privy-Seal, and Thomas Wentworth (1672 – 15 November 1739), Lord Strafford, was the British representatives;
Bruno van der Dussen (9 August 1660-2 February 1741) pensionery and Mayor of Gouda, and Willem Buys (May 27, 1661 - February 18, 1749), pensionary of Amsterdam, Director of the Society of Suriname and the colony of Berbice, was the Dutch representatives;
Marshal Nicolas Chalon du Blé, marquis d'Uxelles (24 January 1652 – 10 April 1730), Cardinal Melchior de Polignac (11 October 1661 – 20 November 1742) and Nicolas Mesnager (17 May 1658 – 15 June 1714), chevalier de l'Ordre de Saint-Michel, was the French representatives;
The ministers of the Emperor and the of Duke of Savoy assisted, and the other allies sent also plenipotentiaries, though with the utmost reluctance.
As England and france were the only two powers that were seriously inclined to peace, it may be supposed that all the other deputies served rather to retard than advance its progress.
They met rather to start new difficulties, and widen the breach, than to quiet the dismissions of Europe.
The English ministers, therefore, finding multiplied obstructions from the deliberations of their allies, set on foot a private negotiation with France. They stipulated certain advantages for the subjects of Great Britain in a concerted plan of peace. They resolved to enter into such mutual confidence with the French as would anticipate all clandestine transactions to the prejudice of the coalition; The number of different interests concerned, and the great enmity and jealousy subsisting between all, made it impossible that all could be satisfied;
[Pinnock's Improved Edition of Dr. Goldsmith's History of England];

12 February 1712 - Death of the Dauphine of France Marie Adélaïde of Savoy for measles;

18 February 1712 - Death of the Dauphin of France Louis for measles;

8 March 1712 - Death of Louis, Duke of Brittany, became Dauphin of France for measles;

13 March 1712 [suppose] («Dominica I. Passionis» called "Judica" in Vetus Ordo, Fifth Sunday of Lent according to the Novus Ordo) - Death of Louis, Duke of Anjou, became Dauphin of France for measles;
The death of the fourth Dauphin within the year created an international crisis, because Philip of Anjou, whom Great Britain was poised to acknowledge as Philip V of Spain, now became Louis XIV's heir
The union between France and Spain under a single ruler, was an eventuality that would have catastrophic implications for the European balance of power.
Peace was out of the question unless a formula could be devised providing against a union of these two mighty nations.
=> The Queen of Spain Maria Luisa of Savoy was at the sixth month of pregnancy;

15 March 1712 - The Abbé Gaultier[1] wrote to the French Foreign Minister Torcy: «The Queen [Anne of Great Britain] has been visibly moved by the misfortunes that have recently taken place in France».
He explained that because she feared that others would use this as an excuse to prolong the war, she considered it imperative that some way was found of preventing a union of crowns. In her view the most satisfactory means would be for Philip of Anjou to make a «formal renunciation» of his right to the French throne;

22 March 1712 - Philip of Anjou, from Madrid, wrote to Louis XIV: «I can not express to your Majesty how much I significantly affected cruel misfortunes that follow one another so closely to each other. Your pain penetrates more deeply to me that you could not imagine, and I constantly think of the sentences of a grandfather I would like to see filled with all kinds of pleasures. [...] I also hope that these fatal events do not bring no difficulties to peace. It is, in truth, to fear they change the favorable provisions met there before. But I hope that God will deign to put a happy ending to such an important book that one and bless the righteous steps you take for it. I beg your Majesty to go all the justice I deserve the feelings I have for her, and still continue to please me his friendship which is so dear to me.»

23 March 1712 - Torcy informed Lord Henry St John, future 1st Viscount Bolingbroke (1678 – 1751), Secretary of Statethat the rules governing succession to the French throne were subject to modification only by God, and hence «the renunciation desired would be null and invalid» [Lois Fondamentales du Royaume de France: Loi Fondamentale d'Indisponibilité de la Couronne (Fundamental Law of Unavailability of the Crown)].
However, when a firm reply was sent, indicating that the expedient proposed was «the only in the Queen's opinion capable of affording the smallest hope», the French relented.
They agreed that, provided Philip divested himself of his rights by a "voluntary cession", the succession could be altered.
The French suggested that there was no need for Philip to make his decision unless the young Dauphin died, but this was rejected by the British. They insisted that two alternatives must be put to him immediately: (1) to remain King of Spain, and give up all claim to the French throne; or (2) retain his French inheritance rights, abdicate his current crow, and evacuate Spain promptly;

18 April 1712 - a messenger set out from France to present Philip with these two proposals.

25 April 1712 - «Lord Oxford's Plan»: from the British point of view it was infinitely preferable that Philip should indeed agree to vacance his current throne, he was now offered an incentive to do so. In a memorandum of the Earl of Oxford outlined a new set of proposals affording Philip some compensation for altering his status. Within days Oxford's plan had been trasmitted to france, where it was well received by Louis XIV.

26 April 1712 - Louis XIV wrote to Philip: «I hope that you put me in a position to make a glorious peace, keeping the crown that you have on your head, and which has already cost so much blood and so much trouble».

28 April 1712 - Not receiving by Philp the answer he waited, anxious impatience, Louis XIV emphasizes more strongly his exhortations in a long despatch addressed to the Marquis of Bonnac for producing a decisive resolution: «It is necessary that my little son takes his party, or come back now in France if he wants to maintain his rights, or to abandon them and to keep the Kingdom of Spain for himself and his posterity ... we have always believed, and I can say with reason that peace would be glorious if I kept the Catholic King of Spain and the Indies, and the times are still far from where the hope of obtaining such conditions seemed reckless. The fate of arms has not changed; however, losses have increased; but the chances to support the war are not only decreased, but run out completely; Spain does not give me any help. [...] I can not believe he wish, only for his own interests, that I obliged to sacrifice my kingdom for the continuation of a war that my subjects are no longer able to support. [...] I look forward to the news of the resolution that will be taken by him, and I send you as special courier for squeeze him, supposing that he has not yet determined. Mine [resolution] is to make peace in any manner whatsoever; if the king my son toddler concurs with me, this to will be advantageous and glorious for him, as I have always wanted».
And wrote to Philip:

13 May 1712 - Torcy informed St.John that his master had joust despatched another messanger to Spain to let Philip know of the deal now on offer, and asking him speedily to signify whether it would be acceptable. Torcy urged that while they awaited Philip's reply, the Queen should announce a suspension of arms. «I would be very unfortunate should any event of the campaign disturb our present good diposition towards the re-establishment of public tranquillity», he wrote silkily.

20 and 21 May 1712 - Torcy's letter arrived in England on the evening, and St.John and Oxford read it to the Queen the following morning. As Gaultier reported, «Her Majesty was so content ad satisfied with it that on the spot she commanded Mr. St.John to despatch a courier to the Duke of Ormonde, with express orders on her part to undertake nothing, neither directly nor indirectly, against the King's army until new orders came».
In effect, Anne's ministers had abandoned their allies in the field and made a separate deal with France, but they were convinced they had reached the best agreement possible, not just for themselves, but also for the other members of the Grand Alliance who were asked to join the Anglo-French suspension of arms.

7 June 1712 - birth of Infante Philip Peter Gabriel of Spain; «The queen [Maria Luisa] gave to your Majesty a grand-son, big and tall, and perhaps even more beautiful than the Prince of Asturias. The labor lasted so little, we can say that delivery has never been happier. [...] Is all the more I am convinced that we can hardly give you a more pleasant news».

8 July 1712 - With a solemn proclamation, read by the municipal authorities in all cities of Spain, and displayed on the main buildings, was officially known to the Spanish people the important resolution that the king had taken.
«The assurance that the crowns of Spain and France will never be put on the same head [...] was as preliminary in views we have had for peace, mainly in the proposals that have been made in England [...] It is on this and other preliminary agreed that the conference to be held in Utrecht, during which negotiations [...] unexpected death of the Dauphins, Britain came [...] to propose and support [...] I had to renonçasse, on my behalf and on behalf of all my descendants, now and forever, the Spanish monarchy or that of France, so that if I was living in Spain, none of my successors could never succeed to that of France, and that those who rule or reign in France, nor any other prince who comes from the family or who is born, will never have the crown of Spain».

29 August 1712 - A dangerous illness which kept Philip for several weeks, away from Madrid; Wrote Philip: «My illness is a double quartan that was violent, and even very dangerous in the early days ... But the danger is past; there are only a weak debility and disgust. I lost completely the taste for coffee and tobacco; there are now five weeks as it lasts, that is to say that I've been sick for the most cruel heat of this country».


Philip and Maria Luisa of Savoy had, at this time:
the Infante Louis Philip, born on 25 August 1707, heir apparent and recognized as Prince of Asturias by the Cortes on 7 April 1709;
the Infante Philip Louis, born on 2 July 1709 and died 18 July 1709;
the Infante Philip Peter Gabriel of Spain, born on 7 June 1712.


First scenario.
Philip became Dauphin of France and his son Louis Philip received the title of Duke of Burgundy (or Duke of Brittany) and was the second-in-line heir to the French Crown.
Philip renounced to the Crown of Spain in favor of his younger brother Charles Duke of Berry [in agreement with the testament of Charles II, king of Spain], who was became Charles III, King of Spain. At this time the Duke of Berry had no living children. In July 1711, his young wife, Marie Louise Élisabeth d'Orléans, gave birth to her first child, a girl, at the Palace of Fontainebleau. The girl lived only two days and her death was blamed on the king who had made her mother travel with the Court to Fontainebleau despite the doctors advising her to stay at Versailles or at the Palais Royal because of her advanced pregnancy. With the transfer to the Court of Spain, the Duke de Berry probably would not have died on 5 May 1714, from internal injuries sustained in a hunting accident, and his children survived the childhood.
End the war, Treaties of peace, partition of the Spanish empire and European Balance of Power are the same that in reality.

Second scenario.
With the birth of Infante Philip Peter Gabriel on 7 June 1712, Philip has had this opportunity and he takes time before making a decision[2]: he became Dauphin of France and his son Louis Philip received the title of Duke of Burgundy (or Duke of Brittany) and was the second-in-line heir to the French Crown. Philip renounced to the Crown of Spain in favor of his younger son Philip Peter Gabriel and proclaimed himself "Regent" or he has entrusted the regency to the Queen Maria Luisa.
Charles Duke of Berry remained in his rights to the French Crown.
End the war, Treaties of peace, partition of the Spanish empire and European Balance of Power are the same that in reality?
Philip would be king of France and regent of Spain?
It actually, he can govern both the kingdoms?
Or he would be just the nominal ruler of one of the two nations?
The feeble hand of Philip, became King of France, can keep also the crown of Spain on the head of his child?

Third scenario.
With the birth of Infante Philip Peter Gabriel on 7 June 1712, Philip has had this opportunity and he takes time before making a decision[2]: he renounced (or bypassed) to his rights to the French Crown [but in in formal contradiction with the «Lois Fondamentales du Royaume de France»; however, these same laws, in reality, were neglected/broken with the recognition, in the peace treaties, of the renunciation extorted to Philip!] in favor of his eldest son Louis Philip, recognized Dauphin of France.
Philip remained King of Spain and his younger son Philip Peter Gabriel became heir apparent.
Charles Duke of Berry remained in his rights to the French Crown and he could become the future regent in France.
End the war, Treaties of peace, partition of the Spanish empire and European Balance of Power are the same that in reality?

Fourth scenario.
Realization of the Lord Oxford's Plan.

Robert Harley, 1st Earl of Oxford (1661–1724) envisaged that the Duke of Savoy [Victor Amadeus II (14 May 1666 – 31 October 1732)] should became King of Spain in Philip's place, and in exchange Philip would be given Savoy and the kingdom of Sicily.
Philip subsequently (suggestion: when he inherited the French Crown?) would be required to surrender Sicily to the Emperor.
The Queen Anna's approval could be counted on, as she had fond feelings for her first cousin, the Duchess of Savoy, Anne Marie d'Orléans (27 August 1669 – 26 August 1728), dating from the time they had shared a nursery during Anne's childhood visit to France.

Although after the failure of the First Partition Treaty of 1698 and in subsequent negotiations, Victor Amadeus II has rejected the Louis XIV's proposal to cede his lands to France in exchange for the kingdoms of Sicily and Naples, both possessions of the Spanish (because Victor Amadeus was unwilling to make up the Principality of Piedmont[3]; Victor Amadeus's real interest was in acquiring the Duchy of Milan[4], and he was willing to exchange, before for his [hypothetical] rights over the countryside of Auvergne, Clermont and the Duchy of Brittany, then for the Duchy of Savoy and County of Nice), now at the peace negotiations the Savoyard ambassador, Ignazio Solaro di Moretta (1662 – 1743) Marchese del Borgo, suggested exchanging the Savoyard state for Naples, Sicily and the Spanish-held State of the Presidi in central Italy (the British argued, partly in their own interests as well as those of Savoy, this exchange; the Imperial envoy Karl von Zinzendorf mooted proposals for the Savoyard acquisition of Milan or Sicily).

In the reality, in late May, however, although the Queen Anna believed that there were compelling reasons to avoid further fighting, she dared not yet declare an official suspension of arms. Instead, she deemed it preferable to wait until Philip's answer arrived, telling Oxford she trusted «the prospect King Philip had of succeeding to the crown of france would be an inducement... to be easy with that allotment» of Savoy an Sicily. Once that had been settled, the new European order could be made public. If the Duke of Savoy became King of Spain, it would satisfy the parliamentary requirement that Spanish throne should be kept out of Bourbon hands, and once, presented with a "fait accompli", the Emperor and the Dutch were unlikely to withstand the new arrangements. In the meantime, all that was necessary was to keep the armies of both side idle [Anne Somerset, «Queen Anne: The Politics of Passion»].

Reign over the kingdom of France after his grandfather and govern as regent, at the same time, Spain, where reign his a minor child (male or female): such was the glorious and naïve chimera that the advice of the young Queen Maria Luisa had raised in the timid spirit of Philippe and that he caressed, at the moment, and charmed his imagination.
«The King», wrote Bonnac[5], «even though loves Spain, perhaps he consents to opt for France if the need absolutely requires him there, but the queen [Maria Luisa], who, as you know, who thinks with a lot of elevation, always, will want to retain everything» [Bonnac to Torcy, 4 April 1712]. And again: «So far, it has formed another idea [...] that keep for him one of the two kingdoms, and leaving the other to one of the princes his children. Her Majesty told me that She would work, however, without delay, the cleverest people in his kingdom to review all precautions to prevent the meeting of the two crowns in the same person» [Bonnac to Louis XIV, 11 April 1712].
Philp wrote to Louis XIV: «These are my thoughts. Turning now to the answer that you ask me, I begin to admit that I was surprised to see that before making proposals, such as the past, we did not think to reassure at same time the enemies by their fear of the meeting of the two monarchies [...] that one of my sons could reign over one of the two kingdoms, while I reign over the other, without meddle in any way into govern or into any of mine to him».

Question/Problem of Sicily in this scenario.
Queen Anne informed the Savoyard ambassador Conte Annibale Carlo Maffei (1667 – 1735) on 23 June 1712, that the British intended to give him Sicily, which, because of the superiority of their Mediterranean Fleet, was in their power to demand. The French were informed the same day, and on 4 September Philip V of Spain consented to relinquish his claim on Sicily. The division of the Spanish empire was designed in part to recognise Savoy's claim to the Spanish inheritance, but more to strike a balance of power in favour of her ally, Britain.[6] As historian Geoffrey Symcox noted, Victor Amadeus «would be bound by the Anglo-French agreement not to dispose of the island or exchange it for other territory, which showed that he had been installed there not in full sovereignty but as guardian of British interests, at Britain's pleasure». These limitations were written into the subsequent Treaty of Utrecht (11 April 1713) between France and Savoy.

[1] The Abbé Francois Gaultier (1670-1721) was an agent or spy for the French Foreign Minister, Jean-Baptiste Colbert, Marquis de Torcy. Through much of the War of the Spanish Succession he lived in England and communicated with Torcy in coded letters. He assumed several roles in the settlement of Utrecht. His most prominent role was to provide a channel of communication which allowed the Earl of Oxford and the Duke of Shrewsbury, leaders in the new Tory ministry of 1710, to negotiate secretly with Torcy and to avoid the scrutiny of the Dutch, the Austrians, and members of their own cabinet. During the negotiations at Utrecht he served the French Plenipotentiaries and acted as a courier for Torcy. He corresponded on behalf of Oxford and Viscount Bolingbroke with the Stuart Pretender in France.
[2] Philip V had wait for a few months, his signature to his renunciations. Its treaties with Queen Anne, the Duke of Savoy and Holland, bear the dates of 10 July, 13 August 1713 and 20 June 1714.
[3] After the Treaty of Lyon (January 17, 1601) Charles Emmanuel I wrote: «it is much better to have a state united (compact), how is this here from the mountains, that two, all two insicure, especially since, possessing the Marquis of Saluzzo, it makes it's very difficult, for the French, invasion of Italy».
[4] The Duchy of Milan was in possession of Austria since 1706, since, on 26 September, Prince Eugene of Savoy had made his entrance into the city.
[5] Jean Louis d'Usson, Marquis de Bonnac (1672-1738), nephew of François d'Usson de Bonrepaus, former clerk of the Navy, which enjoyed some credit to the court, through the protection of Seignelay and Croissy represented in recent months, from May 1711 was French envoy extraordinary to the Spanish court. He was a clever diplomat, careful and shrewd observer.



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It seems like the solution to this writes itself: have France come out clearly on top during the War of the Spanish Succession. With a clear enough victory, the Grand Alliance will not be able to force Phillip's renunciation of the French throne.
A clear enough victory would've only whetted Louis XIV's apetite for German lands
Remember, his ultimate goal was a Bourbon Holy Roman Emperor, and getting Spain would've only given him more manpower to then unleash on the HRE.
As a result, I dont think it likely that the Grand Alliance would've stayed down for very long, and when wae broke out again, the Hapsburg would no doubt make the cause of a Hapsburg King of Spain a condition of any successful war against Louis XIV. Britain and Portugal would invade Spain for that same goal. Unless Prussia were to return to a French alliance as a means of keeping Austria down so France and Spain could then focus on the Anglo-Portuguese and defeat them.
 
Is there a way for the carlists to rule france and then the spanish bourbons rule spain. If that happens is war likely between the 2 houses?
 
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