Optimal Post-WWI Polish Borders Map Survey

[Snaut]

No offense, but that's hardly true. After all, the Germans themselves set up a kingdom of Poland during the First World War. It was a tightly-controlled puppet, of course, but it was a form of Polish independence that the Germans not only accepted, but set up themselves.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here?

 

[yourworstnightmare]

No offense, but that's hardly true. After all, the Germans themselves set up a kingdom of Poland during the First World War. It was a tightly-controlled puppet, of course, but it was a form of Polish independence that the Germans not only accepted, but set up themselves.

And, personally, I doubt Germany would not accept a Polish state on their border. It certainly beats having the USSR there, especially considering that there was a strong communist movement in Germany itself.

Actually Poland gave the Germans major headache during WW1, because they had no idea what to do with it. They made some vague promises to Pilsudski, because he was useful, but all in all Poland was a problem. Setting up a Polish State would only hurt them in the long run, since there were many Poles in Germany and Austria too, but annexing Poland would mean more Poles within Germany, which was unacceptable too. So the Germans just didn't know what the heck to do with Poland.

 

[BlondieBC]

No offense, but that's hardly true. After all, the Germans themselves set up a kingdom of Poland during the First World War. It was a tightly-controlled puppet, of course, but it was a form of Polish independence that the Germans not only accepted, but set up themselves.

And, personally, I doubt Germany would not accept a Polish state on their border. It certainly beats having the USSR there, especially considering that there was a strong communist movement in Germany itself.

Agreed with the condition that Poland not take any German land. Germany will still have dark days after WW1, Nazi or otherwise, but at least Germany will have a different bad guy to blame for the failings.

Note: If land is taken, Posen or parts of Posen will be easiest to accept for the Germans.

 

[Magnificate]

No offense, but that's hardly true. After all, the Germans themselves set up a kingdom of Poland during the First World War. It was a tightly-controlled puppet, of course, but it was a form of Polish independence that the Germans not only accepted, but set up themselves.

Being a puppet misses the point, since such a state would be designed to first and foremost service Germany. During the war it was mostly intended to facilitate recruitment of Polish soldiers.

 

[edvardas]

I would exchange populations of Posen and eastern part of east Prussia. Poland would get access to sea at Tilsit, perhaps with a canal through the spit. Lithuania would keep Klaipeda and Vilnius. Germany would keep Posen and silesia through Breslau. Poland would get Pinsk on the east and Lvov, subject to a plebiscite.
in this manner Germany would have contigous territory and Poland would be more defensible.
I can't paint on my computer.

 

[ctesiphon]

I would exchange populations of Posen and eastern part of east Prussia. Poland would get access to sea at Tilsit, perhaps with a canal through the spit. Lithuania would keep Klaipeda and Vilnius. Germany would keep Posen and silesia through Breslau. Poland would get Pinsk on the east and Lvov, subject to a plebiscite.
in this manner Germany would have contigous territory and Poland would be more defensible.
I can't paint on my computer.

You can't be serious...

 

[Snake Featherston]

Better Entente victory with weakened but still existing Russian state, preferably constitutional monarchy would be optimal choice. Russians were willing to grant Poland independence with some military/economic alliance treaty. In this way Poland gets territories in the west which are majority Polish, but isn't dragged into underdeveloped East in endless conflict it can't win. Plus it doesn't lose its biggest pre-WW1 export market(or export market of pre-war Polish inhabited territories in other words). A compact Poland made of Congress Poland, Poznan, Western Pomerania, East Upper Silesia and West Galicia, with maybe Lviv attached would be quite prosperous and overwhelmingly majority Polish(around 85-90%).
If stable Russian state exists with normal relations to Poland and alliance with Czechs this stops German expansion into Central Europe.
But that requires pre-WW1 butterflies.

Naturally, the devil in the details is how you get to that point. To be blunt averting as a minimum the fall of Tsarism in a WWI scenario requires an enormous number of butterflies all by itself.

No offense, but that's hardly true. After all, the Germans themselves set up a kingdom of Poland during the First World War. It was a tightly-controlled puppet, of course, but it was a form of Polish independence that the Germans not only accepted, but set up themselves.

And, personally, I doubt Germany would not accept a Polish state on their border. It certainly beats having the USSR there, especially considering that there was a strong communist movement in Germany itself.

So satellite states are freedom when they're run by Junkers but not when they're run by Comrade Apparatchinov from Moscow?

 

[MSZ]

They never did, only promised vogue state after the war. And you yourself confirmed that it wouldn't be independent in any way.
As its borders would be smaller than those Russian Empire could offer to Poles and without vital regions like Poznan or Silesia, German option is worse for Poles.

Actually Poland gave the Germans major headache during WW1, because they had no idea what to do with it. They made some vague promises to Pilsudski, because he was useful, but all in all Poland was a problem. Setting up a Polish State would only hurt them in the long run, since there were many Poles in Germany and Austria too, but annexing Poland would mean more Poles within Germany, which was unacceptable too. So the Germans just didn't know what the heck to do with Poland.

Being a puppet misses the point, since such a state would be designed to first and foremost service Germany. During the war it was mostly intended to facilitate recruitment of Polish soldiers.

I'll just remind that ultimately, Germany did not accept Polish independence, as the Trety of Brest Litovsk did not have "independent Poland" in its terms while affirming for example independent Ukraine. Additionaly, Polish territories were already then ment to be divided between the various states. So the "German option" isn't really that great, as it doesn't provide either independence, or "territorial unity" in any form.

BTW, why do people paint West Galicia in any other colour than purple? I mean, NOBODY had claims to that territory at the time and it had a clear polish majority. Is there any reason at all for it not to be annexed by Poland? Who else is there to claim it?

 

[Kome]

Poland Strong!

In anycase i think it makes for rather nice borders.

 

[BlondieBC]

I would exchange populations of Posen and eastern part of east Prussia. Poland would get access to sea at Tilsit, perhaps with a canal through the spit. Lithuania would keep Klaipeda and Vilnius. Germany would keep Posen and silesia through Breslau. Poland would get Pinsk on the east and Lvov, subject to a plebiscite.
in this manner Germany would have contigous territory and Poland would be more defensible.
I can't paint on my computer.

East Prussian Poles were mostly protestants, who voted to stay with Germany. AFAIK, these Poles were not prevented from moving to Poland. Your plan would be one of the few plans both Germans and Poles would condemn.

 

[Snaut]

BTW, why do people paint West Galicia in any other colour than purple? I mean, NOBODY had claims to that territory at the time and it had a clear polish majority. Is there any reason at all for it not to be annexed by Poland? Who else is there to claim it?

Violet – These territories should be actively pursued since there are indispensable to Poland.

In my view, if Poland has the areas I marked as purple, the loss of any single other area can be dealt with, regardless of the fact that area 1 would have gone to Poland by default.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

BTW, why do people paint West Galicia in any other colour than purple? I mean, NOBODY had claims to that territory at the time and it had a clear polish majority. Is there any reason at all for it not to be annexed by Poland? Who else is there to claim it?

I think people still want Austria- Hungary to rise up and claim it.

 

[Kome]

Btw, do you have any more map templates like this? Map painting is fun.

 

[Ameise]

Mine:

Mine was also on linguistic grounds, but I erred more on the German side. Germany is a large and powerful nation with or without these territories, but less hate on the German side will go a long way in favor of Poland.

Sea access is needed, but I presume could be accorded via a clause in the treaty stating that it has unhindered access to Prussian (and possibly Lithuanian) ports?

 

[Noddy]

In the interests of nice-looking borders:

 

[yourworstnightmare]

]What about this?

 

[Magnificate]

It seems to me that in comparison to the last survey two years ago the votes radicalized. People are more willing to use purple and red and there are there appeared voters who advocate Poland not obtaining post-German territories at all. Who knows, perhaps I should add the 'Polish border strip' to the list of available areas.

Btw, do you have any more map templates like this? Map painting is fun.

Unfortunatelly, no. I might eventually remade this one with even more details.

BTW, if anyone have a better idea for representing the borders in the east, let me know.

 

[Iserlohn]

So... here is my "shitty"-looking attempt. In case of the Corridor: It should be international territory like Zmfalvius suggested. A union with Lithuania can be a possibility.

EDIT: Tweaked the whole thing.

 

[Kome]

Poland Strong!

Yet relatively non offensive hopefully!

 

[Magnificate]

Latvia and Slovakia as targets for expansion? I sense an influence from Paradox games.