WTH, I knew that Stalin had a quite territorial demands but Libya in Africa... Come again?
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
I admit I only have the vaguest notion of this and so am very open to corrections, but as I understand it, the Soviet claim was based on the idea of a division of former Italian colonies. I don't know how serious Moscow was about it all.
My thanks for teaching me a word I did not know, exonym.
My dream scenario is every major Axis ally seeing the writing on the wall early enough and managing a competent and timely switch in alliances: Italy first and foremost, but also Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary. The war ends a year early, many lives are saved and most of Europe ends up on the right side of the iron curtain. But I can't imagine that being a realistic outcome, too many things have to go right.
I do wonder what the Germans are going to do about Greece ITTL when (and of course if) Barbarossa stalls. It's one thing to write off the Middle East or even a large part of Asia Minor, but Greece is a doorway to southern Europe.
There’s no way in hell they can strong arm a nominally allied nation into giving up a huge swath of territory like that; I don’t think the Russians would even conceive of doing so.
Ēran has been a self-descriptor for Persians talking about Persia since the 3rd century. If anything “Persia” is the less valid exonym forced on them by the Arabs and later the Europeans.
The Turks will just be ethnically cleansed by being pushed East the same way the Baltic/Pomeranian Germans were pushed out of those regions after the war IOTL (and I presume ITTL as well).
It’s possible rump Turkey continues to make trouble at the border but I highly doubt there will be many allowed to stay living inside of post-war Greece.
I think Greece will naturally see itself as the predominant Balkan and Anatolian nation, leading it to take a leadership position the region simply lacked in the later 20th century IOTL. What this means in terms of other nations’ politics I have no idea. Off the top of my head, in the event of an eventual Soviet collapse Greece would likely step in to try and ensure the independence of Armenia/Georgia/any Balkan Communist states on its own initiative.
Yeah that's unrealistic, I'm just trying to make a bigger Azerbaijan.
I think that exonyms don't really matter that much? It's like Germany and Deutschland. But that's just me.
Terrorism and spillover from civil wars will make the border a nuisance. Greece isn't in actual danger but they have to have troops there too protect its borders nonetheless.
In OTL both the pro-German plots before the invasion of Iran and the ones after the invasion fell short of Iranian and allied security services. Here Reza's position is relatively weaker, he's not shah and the Germans are in force in Iraq which is how the coup gets launched in the first place. So what should the still alive Teymourtash of OTL be doing? He's not exactly taken by surprise by the coup but should not be particularly beheld by loyalty to the Pahlavis after being sidelined... At least he survived TTL.
If they can avoid it why should the British and Soviets invade? Both have their hands full against the Axis. The Soviets used something in the order of 100,000 men and 1,000 tanks in the invasion. That's more than half the fighting power of the Soviet army in the Caucasus. Add to the picture what amounted to three division equivalents for the British.
I wouldn't be counting out the Turkish army so fast. In WW1 they stayed in the fight for four years with a worse supply situation and without German divisions directly aiding them...
What do we mean by the British model? British divisions were not particularly different organizationally. But the Greeks without a complete disruption as in OTL will be keeping closer to their French organizational roots.
12 Italian and 6-7 Bulgarian. That Bulgaria while neutral towards the Soviet Union is fully committed in the Balkans, is from the Axis point of view more than convenient under the circumstances and probably worth the cost in Serb and Greek territory...
For certain it has avoided invasion. For now at least...
The new Iranian government is in an uhm... pretty delicate position. That said it has negotiating advantages it did not have in OTL like 120,000 Axis troops in Iraq...
The Luftwaffe is mostly out, aside from X Fliegerkorps. The Italians still have significant numbers of aircraft in the Balkans, in OTL as late as the Italian surrender in 1943 they had 395 aircraft in the Balkans. Add to the picture the Bulgarian air force although most its aircraft are obsolete. The allies are likely gaining ground as time passes but I frankly doubt the opposition is out.
I understand he was asking for a Soviet trusteeship over Tripolitania with the French at Fezzan and the British in Cyrenaica? That's where the French start proposing that Libya was returned to Italian administration of the British pushed forth independence...
One could point to Poland and Czech Ruthenia but yes...
Well we Greeks said Persia since the time of Cyrus the great but I believe the general idea stands.
Not going to post war arrangements but I would very much doubt any significant Turkish minority within Greece is likely.
TTL Greece may share the name with the OTL country but as time passes is likely going to be increasingly alien to it. Not just due to being richer or stronger or more populous. Above all it's a matter of confidence...
I mean you kinda brought it up but this is why they aren't called Persia, and I don't think that would have changed ttl?
It will be interesting to see which countries Greece ends up allying with in the ME, if they get Cyprus and it seems like they will, they'd be in a position to maybe not play Kingmaker but at least exert significant influence to the region.
That's not really me critiquing, I was just a bit confused because it seemed like Zahedi just disappeared after his coup and Teymourtash stepped in without a word? This just read kinda weird to me?
As a matter of confidence I think they'll be riding the title of 'Held against the Axis invasion' for the next millenium honestly, since that's a title currently only shared by the Soviets and the British. Fuck they can hold that over most of Europe. It'll be interesting to see where the Hellenic identity and geopolitical positions are down the line.
Yeah, I'd tend to agree, but I think that here the Turkish army at difference with the OTL WWI, its fighting in Anatolia simultaneously on two fronts... And, also I guess that even if meanwhile on the Soviet front wouldn't be any changes of importance, (which'd be rather dubious) that a little further forward the line when and if the siege of Smyrna 'd be lifted then I think that Turkey 'd be in a rather compromised strategic situation.
Israel is a good bet, since they’ll be part of the same alliance + will ally with the West. Personally I’d like to see a worse Unit Arab Republic leader that tries to genocide the Jews which prompts the Jews to take more land for strategic depth (like the Footprint of Mussolini? The wars were fun to read at least, and I don’t think the Arabs will do any better ittl.). Kurdistan (if not in the sphere of influence of the USSR, and even if they are they’d be more neutral since they’d most likely be fighting against nominal USSR allies in the ME) and Lebanon should be a good ally if things go differently (Lebanon makes sense but it really depends on post war stuff for the Lebanese).
I totally agree as in WWII things like tanks and heavy artillery really does matter. When the Turks have none, all they could do is guerrilla warfare where they only have guns (and the supply situation will become even worse since they have no industry) so they can’t actually stop an advancing army. They’ll be a nuisance though. Turkey would be devastated after ittl WWII and would be like the rest of the ME, which is sad in some aspects. The only place left where Turkey can have industry is Cilicia basically.
The tl starts at 1920, and Reza Shah isn’t Shah, so this may be one of those things that go differently.
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I think the Greeks will be much more confident and be more right wing than Europe in general. Greece would have to deal and fight in the Middle East so it'd make sense (how that affects American politics in the middle East I'm not sure, but Wahhabism would be more prevalent espicially in Turkey which will prompt Greek action in the late 20th century. Greece would be an active part of the Arab-Israeli wars and I'd think they would try to expand Israel and try to turn Lebanon to a state that is an ally of Israel by embracing Christianity).
Interlude where are they now - 1941 part 3
Italo Balbo, remains governor general of Italian Libya. Despite his concerns over his country's alliance with Germany, he has established a good working relationship with Erwin Rommel, the head of the German Africa Korps. Despite Italian successes in Yugoslavia and Greece and overall Axis successes so far Balbo remains concerned about the progress of the war. His sentiments are not shared by many in Italian leadership...
Marcel Bloch, is in prison after refusing to work for the German occupiers. Other French aircraft designers are not as principled. Emile Dewoitine despite initially escaping France, and trialled for "treason" by the Vichy regime for this, returned to France and is now produced aircraft for Germany...
Fevzi Cakmak is the undisputed commander of the Turkish armed forces for nearly a quarter of a century. A very capable man with far more influence in Turkish politics than credited with he would have preferred neutrality... if that was an option which it was not unless he was willing to concede the Turkish territorial losses in the previous war. So far the gamble appears to be working but he's concerned. The Germans should better finish the Soviets in a timely fashion...
Segismundo Casado is in self exile in Venezuela since the surrender of Republican forces in what proved the first phase of the Spanish civil war. He's watching the war between the factions of the former Nationalists with keen interest.
Francois Darlan, is the strongest most powerful man in the Vichy regime even though the Constantinople and Mers El Kebir squadrons joining Free France the previous year have hardly furthered his influence within the regime or with the Germans. But Darlan still controls what amounts to a very powerful fleet centred around the battleships Jean Bart and Dunkerque at Toulon.
Nuri Demirag has been the leading Turkish industrialist since he start his career by introducing domestic production of cigarette paper with his "Turkish victory" cigaretted back in the previous war. With Turkey having to rely as much as possible on domestic production he has been given the management of the TOMTAS aircraft factory in Kayseri. Demirag has managed to get production of the Re-2000 going. Proposals for a domestic design have been passed over in favour of fitting the German DB-601 engine on the Re-2000. Of course TOMTAS engineers are not the only ones to have come up with such an idea...
Hermann Göring is head of the Luftwaffe and second most powerful man in Germany. A lean driven man, he likes to brag about how he was lightly wounded during the Beer Hall putsch back in 1923. As the average German would not it's not the sole thing he brags about. He has not failed to take advantage of his position, to concentrate power and wealth in his person. Nazi Germany's leadership reminds more a bunch of rival feudal lords, or less charitably a criminal gang with the bosses squabbling with each other and Lean Hermann is the most enthusiastic empire builder of them all, with controlling interests in the Czech Skoda and Avia works as well as Rheinmetal. But for all the empire building and the often clownish performances it would be a gross mistake to underestimate him as an enemy...
Jean de Lattre de Tassigny is serving with the army of Vichy. He's one of the most enthusiastic proponents of preparing for a second round with the Germans...
Georges Mandel is imprisoned by the Vichy regime. He's in good company, with Paul Reynaud and Edouard Daladier in the same prison...
Giovanni Messe, had been leading a corps through the Yugoslav and Greek campaigns before being chosen the lead the Italian expeditionary corps in the Russian front. Arguably it would had made fare more sense to send the CSIR over to North Africa or the Greek front. But political considerations have once more won over.
Juan Negrin is in self exile in London following the fall of France to the Germans. An outspoken supporter of the allied cause he hasn't failed to comment that in the renewed civil war currently underway, Ochoa's is preferable to the Falange, as a Falangist regime would most likely join the Axis. His opinion is hardly popular with Republican exiles but it has been noticed by the Soviet ambassador and passed on to Moscow...
Eduardo Lopez Ochoa has been driven by circumstances to leadership of Nationalist Spain. A moderate man, following victory in the first phase of the civil war he has tried to keep his side from excesses within Spain, and his country out of the war. This has not made him particularly popular with the extremists in the regime, leading to a second coup and renewed civil war this time within the former nationalist coalition. He hasn't failed to notice Negrin's commentary...
Enoch Powell is serving as a captain of the Intelligence Corps, in general Wavell's staff in Cairo. His knowledge of Greek is coming useful...
William Slim, is leading the 10th Indian division in the Iraqi front. His performance has not gone unnoticed. With Wavell less than happy with general Quinan, Slim would be the logical man to put in command of the British forces in Iraq.
Walther Wever is commanding the Luftwaffe for Göring. Under his command the Luftwaffe has done so far quite well and has managed to establish a stategic bomber arm, the early Do-19 bombers are starting to be replaced in the production lines with the four engined He-177, while Wever has also stopped the silliness of demanding every single bomber to be able to dive bomb. But he's facing yet more technical challenges, the Jumo 222 on which all new German bombers depend appears to be plagued by massive development issues, both Arado Ar-240 and Messershmitt Me-210 the proposed replacements for Bf-110, are also facing major problems, while Bf-109s replacement is still in the drawing board and not expected to fly before 1942. And the RAF for all its losses appears to get stronger with every passing day...
Marcel Bloch, is in prison after refusing to work for the German occupiers. Other French aircraft designers are not as principled. Emile Dewoitine despite initially escaping France, and trialled for "treason" by the Vichy regime for this, returned to France and is now produced aircraft for Germany...
Fevzi Cakmak is the undisputed commander of the Turkish armed forces for nearly a quarter of a century. A very capable man with far more influence in Turkish politics than credited with he would have preferred neutrality... if that was an option which it was not unless he was willing to concede the Turkish territorial losses in the previous war. So far the gamble appears to be working but he's concerned. The Germans should better finish the Soviets in a timely fashion...
Segismundo Casado is in self exile in Venezuela since the surrender of Republican forces in what proved the first phase of the Spanish civil war. He's watching the war between the factions of the former Nationalists with keen interest.
Francois Darlan, is the strongest most powerful man in the Vichy regime even though the Constantinople and Mers El Kebir squadrons joining Free France the previous year have hardly furthered his influence within the regime or with the Germans. But Darlan still controls what amounts to a very powerful fleet centred around the battleships Jean Bart and Dunkerque at Toulon.
Nuri Demirag has been the leading Turkish industrialist since he start his career by introducing domestic production of cigarette paper with his "Turkish victory" cigaretted back in the previous war. With Turkey having to rely as much as possible on domestic production he has been given the management of the TOMTAS aircraft factory in Kayseri. Demirag has managed to get production of the Re-2000 going. Proposals for a domestic design have been passed over in favour of fitting the German DB-601 engine on the Re-2000. Of course TOMTAS engineers are not the only ones to have come up with such an idea...
Hermann Göring is head of the Luftwaffe and second most powerful man in Germany. A lean driven man, he likes to brag about how he was lightly wounded during the Beer Hall putsch back in 1923. As the average German would not it's not the sole thing he brags about. He has not failed to take advantage of his position, to concentrate power and wealth in his person. Nazi Germany's leadership reminds more a bunch of rival feudal lords, or less charitably a criminal gang with the bosses squabbling with each other and Lean Hermann is the most enthusiastic empire builder of them all, with controlling interests in the Czech Skoda and Avia works as well as Rheinmetal. But for all the empire building and the often clownish performances it would be a gross mistake to underestimate him as an enemy...
Jean de Lattre de Tassigny is serving with the army of Vichy. He's one of the most enthusiastic proponents of preparing for a second round with the Germans...
Georges Mandel is imprisoned by the Vichy regime. He's in good company, with Paul Reynaud and Edouard Daladier in the same prison...
Giovanni Messe, had been leading a corps through the Yugoslav and Greek campaigns before being chosen the lead the Italian expeditionary corps in the Russian front. Arguably it would had made fare more sense to send the CSIR over to North Africa or the Greek front. But political considerations have once more won over.
Juan Negrin is in self exile in London following the fall of France to the Germans. An outspoken supporter of the allied cause he hasn't failed to comment that in the renewed civil war currently underway, Ochoa's is preferable to the Falange, as a Falangist regime would most likely join the Axis. His opinion is hardly popular with Republican exiles but it has been noticed by the Soviet ambassador and passed on to Moscow...
Eduardo Lopez Ochoa has been driven by circumstances to leadership of Nationalist Spain. A moderate man, following victory in the first phase of the civil war he has tried to keep his side from excesses within Spain, and his country out of the war. This has not made him particularly popular with the extremists in the regime, leading to a second coup and renewed civil war this time within the former nationalist coalition. He hasn't failed to notice Negrin's commentary...
Enoch Powell is serving as a captain of the Intelligence Corps, in general Wavell's staff in Cairo. His knowledge of Greek is coming useful...
William Slim, is leading the 10th Indian division in the Iraqi front. His performance has not gone unnoticed. With Wavell less than happy with general Quinan, Slim would be the logical man to put in command of the British forces in Iraq.
Walther Wever is commanding the Luftwaffe for Göring. Under his command the Luftwaffe has done so far quite well and has managed to establish a stategic bomber arm, the early Do-19 bombers are starting to be replaced in the production lines with the four engined He-177, while Wever has also stopped the silliness of demanding every single bomber to be able to dive bomb. But he's facing yet more technical challenges, the Jumo 222 on which all new German bombers depend appears to be plagued by massive development issues, both Arado Ar-240 and Messershmitt Me-210 the proposed replacements for Bf-110, are also facing major problems, while Bf-109s replacement is still in the drawing board and not expected to fly before 1942. And the RAF for all its losses appears to get stronger with every passing day...
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Italo Balbo not dead...he wasn't a big fan of the german alliance..in fact he wanted Italy on the side of the British..this could have big consequences when the allies land in Italy...
Well how likely it is he gets shot down by friendly fire 2 decades post-POD? Not very much I would think. How much influence does his survival have potentially on Italian politics? That's an interesting question to which I don't necessarily have a good answer at the moment. The man was capable, had connections to the monarchy and being openly against the German alliance is certainly something he could capitalize upon. But in terms of Italian post-war politics with all else being equal how much influence he potentially has? I would expect he's not exactly popular with the MSI if he was against the RSI. What out Italian readers think?
Part 83
Tallinn, August 28th, 1941
The German army entered the city. The Soviet10th Rifle Corps had successfully escaped destruction, as they had been evacuated by the Soviet navy the previous night but their ordeal wasn't over yet. By August 31st Luftwaffe and Ilmavoimat attacks and the extensive mining already in place would cost the Soviets dozens of ships and over 12,000 dead.
Fallujah, August 30, 1941
The Arab legion pushed the last soldiers of the German 294th Infantry division out of the ruins of the town. The Germans had put up a spirited defense but further south Slim's 10th Indian division, backed by the 2nd Indian armoured brigade had smashed its way through its Iraqi opponents, helped no doubt by their lack of anti-tank weapons threatening to unravel the whole Axis position. The Germans, perhaps helped by general Quinan being too slow to exploit the breakthrough gained by Slim, had pulled back in good order but the British and French continued advancing.
Cantieri Ansaldo, Genoa, September 1st, 1941
Workers begun demolishing the superstructure of the ocean liner Roma, as she was taken in had for conversion to an aircraft carrier. When completed, the new carrier, to be named Aquila, would displace nearly 28,000t and carry more than 50 aircraft. Machinery was readily available from two of the 4 Capitani Romani cruisers that had been cancelled when Italy had joined the war last year while Germany had promised to provide a pair of aircraft catapults from her planned second aircraft carrier which for every practical business had been cancelled. With all the ready materials the conversion should progress quite fast. By another account it was already running late as the final decision to proceed with it had been taken only in April amidst the shock of the defeat in the battle of Cythera, after 10 months had been lost in approving, the cancelling, then approving again the project. But the disaster at Cythera, had helped concentrate minds... and construction effort. Littorio was back in service, her damage repaired. Her sister Roma should be complete early next year. Impero was progressing much more slowly, it would have to wait for Roma's completion to start fitting out at Triestw. Of the battleships sunk at Taranto, Duilio and Giulio Cesare were back in service since May and July respectively, Cavour had been refloated back in July but wasn't likely to be returning in service before 1944. But this still left the Regia Marina with three operational battleships. If anything the situation in cruisers with 5 out of the 7 heavy cruisers the navy had start out the war was worse. It was true that all three Ciano class cruisers had been launched but they were still years away from completion.
Outside Smyrna, September 2nd, 1941
The 73rd Infanterie Division, was pulled out of the siege lines and start boarding the trains for Iraq. General Orbay wasn't particularly happy to lose the single German division under his command, but at the moment his army was the only one from which reinforcements could be pulled away. Of course with the single rail line going from Anatolia into Syria and Iraq already running at full capacity, it wasn't as if he was likely to lose any more units for the time being...
Epirus, September 5th, 1941
The Italians had advanced about 10 kilometres in as many days, most significantly taking the town of Arta. Then the Greeks reinforced by their 1st Mountain brigade had counterattacked and stopped the Italian advance after one more week of fighting. It had been a costly 10 kilometres, the Italians had taken over 11,000 casualties and the Greeks another 4,000.
Leningrad, September 9th, 1941
The city had been cut off by the German and Finnish armies but it was still too strongly held and too big for the reduced forces of marshal Von Leeb to storm, the Soviets had been frantically preparing their defences since June. Instead the Germans and Finns settled down for a siege. After all the city had nearly 3.4 million civilians pre war and to this were added over 900,000 soldiers. Surely with 4 million people in place the city would starve and be forced to surrender in short order?
Washington DC, September 11th, 1941
A German U-Boat had very conveniently opened fire against USS Ellet off Newfoundland a few days ago. Circumstances were somewhat unclear, the German ships was apparently being depth charged for nearly three hours by the Americans when it fired but what mattered to the US public and the US government was that on of their ships had been fired upon by the Germans. Then the Germans all the more conveniently had answered the US diplomatic protests by claiming ships had been fired upon first and that FDR was "endeavouring with all the means at his disposal to provoke incidents for the purpose of baiting the American people into the war." And thus president Roosevelt announced a "shoot on sight policy" against German and Italian warships venturing into US waters, to ensure freedom of the seas... to ships of the free world of course.
Baghdad. September 13th, 1941
British and French artillery start raining into the city as French and Empire troops closed onto it. Most German and Turkish troops, had already pulled back further up the Tigris as had the more reliable of Iraqi units, while the government of Rashid Ali and king Ghazi had evacuated to Mosul but Baghdad could not be abandoned altogether. So its defence had fallen to a mixed bag of Iraqi units that could not move out, Al-Fituwwa youths issued arms, volunteer militia organized by Amin al-Husseini, the grand mufti himself had of course escaped to Mosul already, and a handful of Germans that accidentally, or perhaps not so accidentally appeared to mostly belong to the SS. The city itself appeared to be in chaos with an all out pogrom underway against the Christian and Jewish communities...
The German army entered the city. The Soviet10th Rifle Corps had successfully escaped destruction, as they had been evacuated by the Soviet navy the previous night but their ordeal wasn't over yet. By August 31st Luftwaffe and Ilmavoimat attacks and the extensive mining already in place would cost the Soviets dozens of ships and over 12,000 dead.
Fallujah, August 30, 1941
The Arab legion pushed the last soldiers of the German 294th Infantry division out of the ruins of the town. The Germans had put up a spirited defense but further south Slim's 10th Indian division, backed by the 2nd Indian armoured brigade had smashed its way through its Iraqi opponents, helped no doubt by their lack of anti-tank weapons threatening to unravel the whole Axis position. The Germans, perhaps helped by general Quinan being too slow to exploit the breakthrough gained by Slim, had pulled back in good order but the British and French continued advancing.
Cantieri Ansaldo, Genoa, September 1st, 1941
Workers begun demolishing the superstructure of the ocean liner Roma, as she was taken in had for conversion to an aircraft carrier. When completed, the new carrier, to be named Aquila, would displace nearly 28,000t and carry more than 50 aircraft. Machinery was readily available from two of the 4 Capitani Romani cruisers that had been cancelled when Italy had joined the war last year while Germany had promised to provide a pair of aircraft catapults from her planned second aircraft carrier which for every practical business had been cancelled. With all the ready materials the conversion should progress quite fast. By another account it was already running late as the final decision to proceed with it had been taken only in April amidst the shock of the defeat in the battle of Cythera, after 10 months had been lost in approving, the cancelling, then approving again the project. But the disaster at Cythera, had helped concentrate minds... and construction effort. Littorio was back in service, her damage repaired. Her sister Roma should be complete early next year. Impero was progressing much more slowly, it would have to wait for Roma's completion to start fitting out at Triestw. Of the battleships sunk at Taranto, Duilio and Giulio Cesare were back in service since May and July respectively, Cavour had been refloated back in July but wasn't likely to be returning in service before 1944. But this still left the Regia Marina with three operational battleships. If anything the situation in cruisers with 5 out of the 7 heavy cruisers the navy had start out the war was worse. It was true that all three Ciano class cruisers had been launched but they were still years away from completion.
Outside Smyrna, September 2nd, 1941
The 73rd Infanterie Division, was pulled out of the siege lines and start boarding the trains for Iraq. General Orbay wasn't particularly happy to lose the single German division under his command, but at the moment his army was the only one from which reinforcements could be pulled away. Of course with the single rail line going from Anatolia into Syria and Iraq already running at full capacity, it wasn't as if he was likely to lose any more units for the time being...
Epirus, September 5th, 1941
The Italians had advanced about 10 kilometres in as many days, most significantly taking the town of Arta. Then the Greeks reinforced by their 1st Mountain brigade had counterattacked and stopped the Italian advance after one more week of fighting. It had been a costly 10 kilometres, the Italians had taken over 11,000 casualties and the Greeks another 4,000.
Leningrad, September 9th, 1941
The city had been cut off by the German and Finnish armies but it was still too strongly held and too big for the reduced forces of marshal Von Leeb to storm, the Soviets had been frantically preparing their defences since June. Instead the Germans and Finns settled down for a siege. After all the city had nearly 3.4 million civilians pre war and to this were added over 900,000 soldiers. Surely with 4 million people in place the city would starve and be forced to surrender in short order?
Washington DC, September 11th, 1941
A German U-Boat had very conveniently opened fire against USS Ellet off Newfoundland a few days ago. Circumstances were somewhat unclear, the German ships was apparently being depth charged for nearly three hours by the Americans when it fired but what mattered to the US public and the US government was that on of their ships had been fired upon by the Germans. Then the Germans all the more conveniently had answered the US diplomatic protests by claiming ships had been fired upon first and that FDR was "endeavouring with all the means at his disposal to provoke incidents for the purpose of baiting the American people into the war." And thus president Roosevelt announced a "shoot on sight policy" against German and Italian warships venturing into US waters, to ensure freedom of the seas... to ships of the free world of course.
Baghdad. September 13th, 1941
British and French artillery start raining into the city as French and Empire troops closed onto it. Most German and Turkish troops, had already pulled back further up the Tigris as had the more reliable of Iraqi units, while the government of Rashid Ali and king Ghazi had evacuated to Mosul but Baghdad could not be abandoned altogether. So its defence had fallen to a mixed bag of Iraqi units that could not move out, Al-Fituwwa youths issued arms, volunteer militia organized by Amin al-Husseini, the grand mufti himself had of course escaped to Mosul already, and a handful of Germans that accidentally, or perhaps not so accidentally appeared to mostly belong to the SS. The city itself appeared to be in chaos with an all out pogrom underway against the Christian and Jewish communities...
I'm not familiar enough with the details of Barbarossa which seems to be proceeding as OTL, but the Axis seems to be on the retreat in Iraq which doesn't bode well for their Syrian offensive. If the Allies can take back and hold the Iraqi oil fields, the Eastern Front should proceed as in OTL. I'm curious about the Soviet's Anatolian offensive and whether or not they've taken Erzurum and/or Trebizond yet. Italy slowly grinding down the Epirus front but I wonder how long they can sustain even a small scale offensive given their losses, well everywhere, and considering that if I'm remembering right Greece was about to launch a counterattack. Then again, Greece has sustained equal, if not worse casualties than Italy. America's entry into the war, seems to be conforming to OTL which makes sense. Can't wait to see what comes next!
So basically Barbarossa continues on and Italy loses steam against Greece, which is always good. Would the Armistice in September 1943 be different than otl considering that Greece would be a player or that the allies would be somewhat distracted by Yugoslavia?
The Iraq war is a bit weird as otl the war ends at May while ittl the war's still ongoing in August. Did the war just occur later or did the allies move slower ittl.
The Iraq war is a bit weird as otl the war ends at May while ittl the war's still ongoing in August. Did the war just occur later or did the allies move slower ittl.
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Well, the difference is 120,000 Turks and Germans decided that those Iraqi oil fields looked awful nice and gee look whose in need of some foreign support. However given the success of the Allied counteroffensive, inability to replace equipment losses by the Axis (especially Turkey), and the Soviet participation in the Anatolian Theater, I think that the Axis will be pushed out of the Middle East quite soon.
Ah that makes a lot of sense. Turkey's pushed at multiple fronts though, and I'd see them crumble soonish. Maybe 1942-3?