Malaya What If
- Thread starter Fatboy Coxy
- Start date
Fatboy Coxy
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Hi pdf27, well I could rule this answer incorrect, as Peter Rule is a 'nom de guerre', and not a real name, but I love the alternative answer, and suspect you know of my one too, and are just toying with me as a cat might with its mouse!Bit hard without knowing which Peter Rule you're thinking of. I'll try:
Squadron Leader Peter Rule met the US Secretary of State for Defense Neil H McElroy in 1959
View attachment 860206
Neil McElroy was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in December 1959 by President Eisenhower.
Charlton Heston was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in July 2003 by President George W Bush.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Driftless, well you know it too, but also choose to tease. I thought of asking you (and pdf27) for your favourite character in my story, and in an act of revenge, I'll kill them off, but I have no doubt you'd choose MacArthur, and he's not going anywhere, hmmm, perhaps that will be my act of vengeance, make MacArthur and even bigger hero!
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Or perhaps a note to myself, these guys are way too smart for me, and I suspect they are only just the quickest to react, there's plenty more out there above my capabilities. Time for a speckled hen, me thinks!
The only chance I see for the Dutch is if they realize they can't save it all and when war starts surge all available force to Ambon, Kendari, Maakassar, Banjarmassin and Kuching. This would include the forces held back in Java. Brigade sized forces on each of these could have potentially held off the Japanese invasion forces that were not really that large or that well supported. If they hold these they hold Sumatra and Java. Problem is politics says you can't abandon the rest of Borneo and the Celebes and you can't weaken Java.
Genuinely couldn't think of what you were after - I'm not a film buff, so went for the Seven Degrees of Kevin Bacon solution in real life with the first Peter Rule I could find with a decent biography.
As for favourite character, I'd claim Hirohito just to see how the story developed from that!
muddyleathers
Banned
From the mid-1930s he was a rubber planter for a British company in Malaysia. And in World War Two he served as an undercover agent for the Special Operations Executive (SOE).
If I could alter history of this time period and region I'd call Mac back CONUS on 1 November 1940, taking Willoughby, Sutherland, and Brerton with him. Then "temporarily" put Wainwright in charge with specific orders to fortify Battan...among other things, get all the ammo moved out of Manila Castle and have at least a six month supply of FULL rations on hand. Additionally, I'd get supplies and equipment moved to the outer islands to set them up to continue fighting. The USAAF commander would have specific orders to take offensive action as soon as word of a Japanese attack occurred on any American soil.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Two Generals and the principal differences between them in my opinion, MacArthur and Gort.
All other differences apart, such as time in post, resources available, etc, what were the principal differences between these two men. First and foremost MacArthur was highly distracted by his political ambitions in Washington, and never concentrated all his attention on the Philippines. Gort however had no grand political ambitions, there was no way he was going to become Prime Minister, even though as a member of the upper house he could assume the role. Convention by 1941, was that the PM sat in the lower house, and if Winston was going to be replaced, it wasn’t going to be by a General. Nor does he have any military ambitions, he was formerly the professional head of the British Army during his stint as CIGS, he had commanded the BEF, and there was no chance of him getting command of the British European invasion forces. This is his last significant military command, and he is focused on doing the best he can, with the little that is available. MacArthur whose self belief and ego, meant that he finds it difficult to play nice with others, and virtually impossible to admit he was wrong, it was always someone else’s fault. Gort can admit he was wrong, and does so in the TL, when he dismisses Lt Col Stewart from his command of his battalion, for the good of the service. But then promoted him, and put him in charge of all advanced jungle training, and put him in the position of being first in line to command a brigade in the event that a replacement is needed. Unlike Mac, Gort hasn’t surrounded himself with yes men, and is prepared to accept criticism, especially in areas that are outside his knowledge or experience, thus he will defer to others who have professional expertise he doesn’t. Yes as a former Guardsman he has incredibly high standards, and expects others to try to live up to them, but he can and does respect that others have their own standards, that are more suited to their own areas of expertise.
RR.
All other differences apart, such as time in post, resources available, etc, what were the principal differences between these two men. First and foremost MacArthur was highly distracted by his political ambitions in Washington, and never concentrated all his attention on the Philippines. Gort however had no grand political ambitions, there was no way he was going to become Prime Minister, even though as a member of the upper house he could assume the role. Convention by 1941, was that the PM sat in the lower house, and if Winston was going to be replaced, it wasn’t going to be by a General. Nor does he have any military ambitions, he was formerly the professional head of the British Army during his stint as CIGS, he had commanded the BEF, and there was no chance of him getting command of the British European invasion forces. This is his last significant military command, and he is focused on doing the best he can, with the little that is available. MacArthur whose self belief and ego, meant that he finds it difficult to play nice with others, and virtually impossible to admit he was wrong, it was always someone else’s fault. Gort can admit he was wrong, and does so in the TL, when he dismisses Lt Col Stewart from his command of his battalion, for the good of the service. But then promoted him, and put him in charge of all advanced jungle training, and put him in the position of being first in line to command a brigade in the event that a replacement is needed. Unlike Mac, Gort hasn’t surrounded himself with yes men, and is prepared to accept criticism, especially in areas that are outside his knowledge or experience, thus he will defer to others who have professional expertise he doesn’t. Yes as a former Guardsman he has incredibly high standards, and expects others to try to live up to them, but he can and does respect that others have their own standards, that are more suited to their own areas of expertise.
RR.
It should be noted that after The Philippines humbled Mac a bit (not that he'd ever admit that), he did learn to pick talented subordinates for command slots, or learned to work with others he didn't command, and then let them do their jobs. And even listen to them. General Eichelberger, while initially poorly treated and micromanaged, was later left to do his job in a rather hands off manner and pretty much ran field operations as he wanted. General Kenney was similarly let to run things as he wanted, and actually seemed to be one of the few men that could get Mac to see reality. Of course he did so by expertly buttering the man's ego first. And Bull Halsey Nimitz got away with alot by being someone Mac couldn't control, as he wasn't under his command, but also got along with Mac (even as Bull privately hated the man). Mac in turn respected Halsey as a consummate badass, even as something of an equal, that he could work with. In fact, Halsey is one of the few officers (of any service, especially the Navy) Mac ever referred by name to others in a positive manner!
Plus, in my opinion, Mac did learn from his mistakes and by 1943and especially 1944 was a capable operational and theater level commander. No uber-genius like he saw himself as, I agree, but highly capable with occasional flashes of brilliance that, unfortunately, only fed his delusions of genius.
Plus, in my opinion, Mac did learn from his mistakes and by 1943and especially 1944 was a capable operational and theater level commander. No uber-genius like he saw himself as, I agree, but highly capable with occasional flashes of brilliance that, unfortunately, only fed his delusions of genius.
Remember MacArthur worked with Eisenhower during the buildup, even though he was Eisenhower's direct superior. MacArthur did eventually drive him away, though they did eventualize reconcile. https://www.ausa.org/articles/eisenhower-and-macarthur-toil-trouble-and-turbulence-philippines Also, even *during* the war, the feeling was that if Eisenhower could work with MacArthur, he could work with ANYONE.
Fatboy Coxy
Monthly Donor
Hi Ramp-Rat, whilst I share your conviction that Gort in Singapore is better than MacArthur in Manila, lets not sugar coat 'Tiger' too much to our American friends, Gort was also known to be somewhat pedantic, involving himself in matters far below his pay grade, while many in the British Army thought he was far less intelligent that say Wavell on deeper military matters. He's in Singapore, because that's the best I could find available in that time frame, I'd have rather have had Auchinleck or at a push Alexander there.
Perhaps I should do a little fictitious story highlighting some of his less admirable traits.
No one's perfect. It's what you do with your good traits and capabilities that matters in the end.
Any consideration to reassigning the Makassar Garrison to reinforce the KNIL garrison at Manado? How quickly can the KNIL build a rough airfield at Manado? The ability to position a squadron with refueling and rearming capabilities perhaps?
I mention this as Manado may be the key to the ABDA defense. Say the IJN Naval Landing Forces and Naval paratroopers are met by a reinforced opposed landing force and fail to secure the northeastern tip of Celebes Island. Then it will take at least a month to try again. Maybe even longer. The follow on Battle of Balikpapan, does not occur two weeks later near the end of January 1942. The Makassar Strait does not turn into dominoes.
The fluid plans of the IJN are partially aground at Manado and will require further effort. More important, it buys time for the First Australian Corp to reach Sumatra or Java.
Of course this only good for us the readers. For the author, he's going to try to wrap it up by April. However, he isn't specific on whether that is April 2024, April 1942 or just some April! LOL
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
In other words a typical Guardsmen, not only must you ensure that your boots, buttons and brass are polished, but the soles and nails of your boots, along with the backs of your buttons and brass too. Which funny enough might not be such a bad thing, the general attitude in the east was far more relaxed, especially among the officers. Officers were known to knock off early, so that they could change into their monkey suits, and head for Raffles to down a few cocktails before supper and a bit of dancing. Knowing that big boss just might pop into your office last thing enquiring about x, y, or z, and have you finished your task, might concentrate a few minds. I remember reading that when he was OC BEF, he was famous for running a very austere HQ, not for him a luxurious Chateau, with a big office and a luxury desk. His desk was a folding table covered with a grey army blanket, and his tea was served in an enamel mug, not fine china. I also remember reading that Raffles had a policy of not serving people who were not in a monkey suit, which I could see him not being happy about, there’s standards for peace time and there are standards of war time, and the Empire is at war. Admittedly not in the Far East yet, and he and others know that it is only a question of time, but it is at war and it’s time that people realised this. A very complex man our Tiger, and much underrated, IOTL he was a good Governor of both Gibraltar and Malta, and strangely I believe he will prove to be the saviour of Malaya and Singapore. While Auchinleck and Alexander achieve great things elsewhere, possibly with the Auk having Slim under him in Burma, and Alex with Monty in Europe.
RR.
I don't see the reasoning of forcing Kido Butai through the Makassar Straits. Off Tanjung Ongkona there is little room to manuever. Once you reach the Makassar area you have another cluster of atolls, islands and reefs heading to Borneo. The Arafura and Timor Sea are somewhat better areas for carrier ops, even though they are shallow so to speak.
Like the Borneo shelf, but less cluttered.
After the spectacular success at Pearl, I can't see the Emperor telling the IJN that they must now fetch water when the Army directs them. Kido Butai requires some upkeep, as do all naval vessels. The next major task is to reduce any threat from the RN in the IO. Putting off your RAV's (restricted availabilities) will effect future performance.
On other point about Kenney, was from my reading, Hap Arnold gave Kenney far more operational control. MacArthur could choose strategic goals, but for the most part Kennedy handled his own Operational and Tactical missions. This was IMO a result of Mac Arthur and Brenton screwing the pooch in the Philippines and DEI.