Charles is healthier and younger, so here he would not have the OTL reasons for refusing the match and instead push his son.
List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage II
- Thread starter FalconHonour
- Start date
In 1547 Charles V has no reason for pushing forward his barely twenty years old son forward. Isabella had died eight years earlier while his last illegitimate son, John, was born just at the beginning of that year, meaning who Philip is both too young and too needed in Spain for being sent to marry Mary while Ferdinand is still in mourning for Anne, who has died few months earlier, while Charles is still able to generate children and is the husband who Mary wanted. Plus marrying Mary would consent him to establish his main seat in his beloved Netherlands, leaving the government of Spain to Philip (who will need to remarry, but to either Maria of Viseu or Marguerite of France. Or to Christina of Denmark, but this match is far less likely than any of the other two)
I agree with this. There is also the fact Charles V would probably be better choice for Mary I than his own son, who didn't deserves Mary I at all, both OTL and ATL. I am wondering about what would happen to Elizabeth I in this situation.
Well I think who they had a too big age gap and Mary was too old for having the marriage work (in the same way in which Philip and Maria Manuela were both too young for having a good marriage) as Philip OTL was a good husband for both Elisabeth and Anna.
Thing I'm wondering is how Edward VII of England also being Duke of Burgundy would change European politics. Especially if his reproductive history is better than Henry VIII...
Henry VIII (b. 1491-1547) married a) Catherine of Aragon (b. 1485-1528) and b) Isabella of Navarre (b. 1513-)
Elizabeth (b.1510-1534) m Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1500-1558)
Philip II of Spain (b. 1527-) married Maria Manuela of Portugal (b. 1527.-.) with issues
Catherine (b. 1528-.)married Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor and King of Bohemia and Hungary (b. 1527-) with issues
Ferdinand, Duke of Burgundy (b. 1530-) married Anna d'Este (b. 1531-) with issues
Charles, Duke of Milan (b.1531-) m Catherine of Savoy (b.1529-) with issues
Juana (b. 1534-) married Joao IV of Portugal (b. 1537-) with issues
Henry duke of Cornwall (1511)
Stillborn son
stillborn son
Catherine (b.1516-) m Francis II of France (b. 1518-1536)
Francis II of France (b. 1534-) married Margaret of Austria (b. 1536-) with issues
Henry, Duke of Berry (b. 1536) married Joanna of Savoi-Nemours (b.1532-) with issues
Edward VI of England (b. 1518-.)m Maria of Portugal (b.1521-)
Henry IX, King of England (b. 1538-.) m Barbara of Austria (b.1539-) with issues
Catherine (b. 1540-) married Arthur I of Scotland (b. 1541-) with issues
Edward, Duke of Richmond (1541)
John, Duke of Richmond (b. 1542-) married Mary Fitzalan, Countess of Arnold (b. 1540) with issues
Eleanor (b. 1544-) married Christian Wilhelm*, Duke of Jülich-Cleves-Berg (b. 1542-) with issues
Elizabeth (b.1549-1552)
Henry, Duke of York (b. 1530-) married Elizabeth Boleyn, Countess of Wiltshire (b. 1533-) **with issues
Mary (b. 1532-) married Frederick II of Denmark (b. 1533-) with issues
Cecily (b.1534-1538)
Charles, Duke of Somerset (b. 1536-) married Mary Gray (b. 1537-) with issues
Anne (b.1538-1545)
* Son of Wilhelm, Duke of Cleves and Christina of Denmark
** only daughter of George Boleyn
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He had bigger age gaps with his successive wives, what are you on about
I think that @isabella meant that Mary I was too old for Philip II. There is a reason why the marriage where a bride is much older than a groom is rare, after all.
Who Philip had good reasons for being unhappy with being married off to an old maid... If he had married someone closer to his age and more attractive (Maria of Viseu, Christina of Denmark, Elizabeth Tudor) he would undoubtedly be a much better husband.
Exactly… and most of times in which the bride is significantly older marriages ended badly
An idea inspired by a conversation with @isabella :
Catalina of Aragon (1485-1536) 1m: 1501 Arthur, Prince of Wales (1486-1502); 2m: 1507 [1] Zygmunt I, King of Poland, Grand Duke of Lithuania (1467-1548)
[2] because while Jadwiga for the oldest daughter in Poland is "traditional", do we really think Catalina wouldn't argue for her mom's name? The woman could be stubborn as a mule. She can sweeten the pot by pointing out that Jadwiga's daughter's name was "Elisabeth"
[3] Like OTL, Catalina is probably hoping her daughter will be able to marry Karl V, and is sorely disappointed when he marries elsewhere. She's not Bona Sforza, so I suspect she will not say a "king at any price" to the point of "wasting" her daughter. The son of Georg the Bearded- after his Protestant-leaning Hessian wife has a tragic fall from a horse- is the man settled on
[4] Catalina persuades Zygmunt to agree to this marriage post-Mohacs (rather than waiting for a daughter of Ferdinand and Anna). Marie is not particularly pleased by the idea of remarriage, but her aunt manages to convince her.
[5] I know that it's always posited that Marie was barren because she and Lajos had no children, but Emperor Ferdinand and Anna were likewise married since 1521 and their first child was only born in 1526 (and Anna was two years older than Marie)
[6] Zygmunt Stary held this title OTL IIRC
@Jan Olbracht @Zygmunt Stary @Awkwardvulture
Catalina of Aragon (1485-1536) 1m: 1501 Arthur, Prince of Wales (1486-1502); 2m: 1507 [1] Zygmunt I, King of Poland, Grand Duke of Lithuania (1467-1548)
[2m.] Zygmunt Ferdynand (1507-1507)
[2m.] Isabella [2] (b.1508) m: 1530 [3] Johann, Duke of Saxony (b.1498)
[2m.] Jan II, King of Poland, Grand Duke of Lithuania (b.1509) m: 1528 Marie of Austria [4] (b.1505)
Stillborn Son [5] (1529)
Jadwiga (1530-1545)
Katarzyna (b.1532)
Ludwik (1535-1538)
Jan Zygmunt (b.1537)
Anna (b.1538)
[2m.] Jadwiga (b.1512) m: 1530 Magnus III, Duke of Mecklenburg (b.1509)
[2m.] Zygmunt, Duke of Głogów [6] (b.1514)
[2m.] Zofia (b.1516) m: 1535 Joachim II, Elector of Brandenburg (b.1505)
[1] unsure of the POD, but either Henry VII remarries or Edmund Tudor survives, thus negating the need for Henry VIII to marry as speedily as possible (so he marries Eleonore of Austria instead. How does Catalina end up in Poland? Thinking she arrives in Castile while Philipp the Handsome is still alive, but after Margarethe of Austria has turned down a marriage with Zygmunt Stary (OTL Maximilian proposed the widowed Juana la Loca as well). Either way, Catalina winds up as a sort of "Habsburg proxy bride" (Fernando el Catolico would have no real reason to object to it because it both allows him to play nice with Max as well as get one of his agents (I mean daughters) to upset the Habsburg apple cart)[2] because while Jadwiga for the oldest daughter in Poland is "traditional", do we really think Catalina wouldn't argue for her mom's name? The woman could be stubborn as a mule. She can sweeten the pot by pointing out that Jadwiga's daughter's name was "Elisabeth"
[3] Like OTL, Catalina is probably hoping her daughter will be able to marry Karl V, and is sorely disappointed when he marries elsewhere. She's not Bona Sforza, so I suspect she will not say a "king at any price" to the point of "wasting" her daughter. The son of Georg the Bearded- after his Protestant-leaning Hessian wife has a tragic fall from a horse- is the man settled on
[4] Catalina persuades Zygmunt to agree to this marriage post-Mohacs (rather than waiting for a daughter of Ferdinand and Anna). Marie is not particularly pleased by the idea of remarriage, but her aunt manages to convince her.
[5] I know that it's always posited that Marie was barren because she and Lajos had no children, but Emperor Ferdinand and Anna were likewise married since 1521 and their first child was only born in 1526 (and Anna was two years older than Marie)
[6] Zygmunt Stary held this title OTL IIRC
@Jan Olbracht @Zygmunt Stary @Awkwardvulture
Isabella is old enough to marry Duke of Mazovia. Janusz III died in 1526, so she could still marry Johann of Saxony as second husband anyway (unless they have a son, then Izabela stays in Mazovia as regent).
Held when he was his brother's governor, doubtful that Ferdinand would let Sigismund's son bear it.
Theresa of Portugal m. Alfonso IX of Leon(a) m. John of England(b)
1a. Sanchia of Leon b. 1191
2a. Ferdinand b. 1192 d. 1214 m. Blanche of Castile[1](a)
2a1a. Alfonso X of Leon b. 1208
3a. Dulce of Leon b. 1193
4b. Henry III of England b. 1200 m. Mary of France b. 1196
5b. Richard II of Aquitaine b. 1202 m. Margaret of Flanders
6b. Joan of England b. 1203
7b. Therese of England b. 1207
8b. Eleanor of England b. 1208
1.Louis VIII marries Eleanor of Brittany and Arthur of Brittany survives with issue, Blanche remarries to Theobald of Navarre after she is widowed.
@isabella
1a. Sanchia of Leon b. 1191
2a. Ferdinand b. 1192 d. 1214 m. Blanche of Castile[1](a)
2a1a. Alfonso X of Leon b. 1208
3a. Dulce of Leon b. 1193
4b. Henry III of England b. 1200 m. Mary of France b. 1196
5b. Richard II of Aquitaine b. 1202 m. Margaret of Flanders
6b. Joan of England b. 1203
7b. Therese of England b. 1207
8b. Eleanor of England b. 1208
1.Louis VIII marries Eleanor of Brittany and Arthur of Brittany survives with issue, Blanche remarries to Theobald of Navarre after she is widowed.
@isabella
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He could give him duchy (but rather Opole/Racibórz than Głogów) in exchange for something (unpaid dowry perhaps).
Scenario: Katherine Grey married Arran.
Katherine Grey (b.1540: d.1592) m. James Hamilton, Earl of Arran (b.1537: d.1609) (a)
Katherine Grey (b.1540: d.1592) m. James Hamilton, Earl of Arran (b.1537: d.1609) (a)
1a) James Hamilton, Duke of Arran and Suffolk (b.1563: d.1607) m. Elizabeth Douglas (c.1578: d.1621) (a)
1a) Jean Hamilton (b.1594)
2a) George Hamilton, Duke of Arran and Suffolk (b.1598)
3a) Miscarriage (c.1600)
4a) Anne Hamilton (b.1604: d.1605)
2a) Elizabeth Hamilton (b.1565: d.1640) m. Robert Stewart, Earl of March, Lord of Dunbar (b.1522: d.1586) (a), Simon Fraser, Lord Lovat (b.1570: d.1633) (b) -annulled 1595-, Ludovic Stewart, Duke of Lennox (b.1574: d.1624) (a)
1a) Elizabeth Stewart (b.1582)
2a) Alexander Stewart, Earl of March, Lord of Dunbar (b.1585)
3a) Sir James Stewart (b.1586)
4b) Stillborn Son (c.1587)
5c) Margaret Stewart (b.1598)
6c) John Stewart, Duke of Lennox (b.1600)
7c) Catherine Stewart (b.1603)
8c) Diana Stewart (b.1606)
what if Lajos bestows it on the boy? Could Ferdinand revoke it?
would Katherine agree to that, though? Also, would Katherine block Albrecht of Prussia from marrying Anna of Mazovia like Bona did?