KGV Regunned

Been reading a WW2 Alt History book recently and came cross a interesting idea (gona spoiler as little as possible) in the book the last two KGV Class battleships are built with 16 inch guns supplied by the USA in a triple turret 3x3 configuration, they get also bigger torpedo bilges and more armour, at the cost of a few knots lost in terms of speed.

Would have America supplied the guns? What reason would the Royal Navy need to do such a redesign? Finally what are the effects of having a "sub class" of two "Upguned KGV class" battleships?

Wondered what everyone thought since personally I like the idea in principle.
 
The major problem is that the British never completed their designs for a triple turret, which would make having the 16in gun barrels and breeches on hand useless.

From what I've read the KGV and the PoW were to be completed with 14in guns and the Duke of York class would have been armed with 16in guns. The Lion class is still being worked out. In order to maintain tonnage limitations two 14ins guns were eliminated from the KGV and the design and development of the twin gun turret took so long that the Duke of York and its successors were redesigned to mount ten 14in guns rather than nine 16in guns.

Another problem is that retrofitting the KGVs to carry the 16in guns would be time consuming and a waste of money during wartime (or even peace). One could consider that the quadruple turrets and their barbettes could be modified to accept a triple turret. However, one will not find the twin turret easy to replace with a triple turret. What may work would be removing the twin 14in guns and replacing it with one or two dual purpose 5.25in gun turrets. These new turrets would either supplement or replace the existing secondary armament at the ship's waist. Also it is possible that the twin 14in gun turret would be just replaced by a larger AA battery.

This particular warship, mounting six 16in guns, would be fairly similar to the 'small battleships' considered in 1945 by the Royal Navy.
 

CalBear

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Which U.S. 16" gun? The 16/45 would add roughly 40 tons of topside weight and the 16/50 would add better than 200 tons. I would guess, depending on the rest of the refit, that the 16/50 would make the ship extremely top heavy, to the point that the ship would be a hazard.

The 16/45 added weight would be more manageable, but even then the weight that, IOTL, was dedicated to additional AAA would have to be left off. With the demonstrated weakness in the KGV class original AAA layout that would not be a wise decision.

There is also the not inconsiderable difference in shell weight. The 14/45 Mk VII on the KGV used a 1590 pound shell (both the AP & HE rounds were this weight). All the handling equipment on the ship was designed to work with shells in that weight range. The U.S. 16/45 & 16/50 used a 1,900 pound HE and a 2,700 pound AP shell. Could the KGV shell handling equipment manage a 60% heavier shell? For that matter the 16" U.S. shell was a foot longer than the RN shell, what does that do to the magazine storage and shell handling. These shell sizes are considerably larger than even the shells of the proposed 15" guns that were under consideration for the KGV class )and the USN AP round is 35% heavier than even the 16" shell used on the Nelson class)


Lastly these is the issue of speed. The KGV were not exactly speedboats to begin with at 28 knots. They can't give up too much speed before they start to hold back the carriers, and the addition of the sort of weight and other changes you are discussing here will cost them several knots. This is one of those things that keeps on giving since a 25 knot ship may be right on the edge of being able to do the job but the same ship with a fouled bottom (aka the normal state of a ship) is probably now at 21-22.5 knots.

The reality is that battleships are built around their guns. Trying to "up-gun" one is a practical impossibility. Up-gunning is hard to do with a tank, with a warship it is nigh on impossible.
 

Satrap

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Been reading a WW2 Alt History book recently and came cross a interesting idea (gona spoiler as little as possible) in the book the last two KGV Class battleships are built with 16 inch guns supplied by the USA in a triple turret 3x3 configuration, they get also bigger torpedo bilges and more armour, at the cost of a few knots lost in terms of speed.

what's the books title & author plse?
 
The Royal Navy was pretty committed to the 14" gun. They pushed for it at the London Naval Conference. The Lion's were only up-gunned to 16" when it became apparent no one in Europe would go lower that 15". Either way its a moot point. By 43 the battleship had been surplanted as THE capital ship by the aircraft carrier. It's a wonder Vanguard was completed as a battleship in 46 and not converted into some form of carrier.
 
SatRap the book is Moment of Destiny: One Day In Oran by Roger Branfill-Cook, a lot of whats been said confirms my suspicions that the author may have been writing a AH to do what he thinks is cool, rather than whats historically possible.

For example one thing that made me go COOOLLLLLLLL! but doubt would work: RAF Lancasters equipped with Tallboy bombs dive bombing the Yamato when shes at battle speed in open sea.

Sorry Calbear & David S Poepoe he doesnt actually say which 16 inch guns are supplied just that the USA did supply the guns, while implying the Royal Navy had time to build the turrets to make it more confusing. I agree that no mater how cool an idea it would turn the KGV as we know it into a slow well armed and armoured nut useless for carrier warfare, but great for taking on old slow battleships/fire support missions.
 
For example one thing that made me go COOOLLLLLLLL! but doubt would work: RAF Lancasters equipped with Tallboy bombs dive bombing the Yamato when shes at battle speed in open sea.

:eek:

Suicidal British bomber pilots, cause that Lancaster will be going right into the sea. Might as well leave the bomb in the bay and guide it in themselves.
 
The Tallboy wasn't very practical except against immoble hardened targets like Uboat pens. They had a hard time hitting Tirpitz with one and she was parked at the time. True, it only took one good hit to capsize her, but had she been moving in open ocean I doubt she'd have taken a hit. Bombers the size of Lancasters were just too easy to see and too slow to make the attack without a ship like Yamato moving out of the way.

Anyway, the Germans had already came up with the better answer to this problem. Radio controlled glider bombs like Fritz X.
 

Satrap

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I think this could be book to bypass - Amazon review states he has Barbarossa starts 1st March 1941 :confused::confused::eek::eek: -
 

CalBear

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Weren't the Scharnhorst class designed to be able to be up-gunned?

Yes they were. The key is designed. The ships were built to accomodate the 15" gun and shells.

The Japanese did the same thing with the Mogami class cruisers. They built them from the start to be heavy cruisers, but initially sent them to sea with triple 6" guns instead of 8" twins. Interesting ships, although they were a bit odd.
 

Markus

Banned
What reason would the Royal Navy need to do such a redesign?

I can´t think of a reason for any form of up-gunning. The triple-14” was not ideal but hey, it worked! A 14” shell crippled Bismarck and would have sufficed to do the same to any axis battleship except Yamato and Musashi.
 
I can´t think of a reason for any form of up-gunning. The triple-14” was not ideal but hey, it worked! A 14” shell crippled Bismarck and would have sufficed to do the same to any axis battleship except Yamato and Musashi.

The last two KGV's were the Anson and Howe. I don't think they used their guns for anything other than shore bombardment. 14" guns can do that. IMO by 1943/44 radar directed accuracy was becoming more important than a bigger gun.
 
What about regunning them with US 14"/50 mark 11 guns like our BB's carried. Would that be an improvement over the 14/45 mark VII the the KGV's were armed with?
 
What about regunning them with US 14"/50 mark 11 guns like our BB's carried. Would that be an improvement over the 14/45 mark VII the the KGV's were armed with?


It would not make any difference, except making the ships more expensive and equipped with a lesser gun, since the British gun fired a heavier and more capable shell, which was designed to defeat German Armor defenses better than the US model, which was by any means a much older model.

The King George V class was good as it was and certainly were deployed rather well, except for the stupid sending of HMS Prince of Wales to Singapore. It was the best the British had in terms of dealing with the new fast German capital ships and could not have been replaced by anything else in time, as this would have delayed them more than already, giving the Germans a serious tactical advantage in the gab of time.

The Germans knew the King George V class could defeat their armored ships very effectively, as the Brtiish AP round of the 14 inch (and 15 inch as well) was a very potent armorpenetrating weapon, especialy against the German Krupp Cemented armor of the German warships. This was a development of the British Post great War testing on SMS Bayern, which was herself the basical model for the Bismarck Class in technical layout in general.
 
Regunning...

Re-gunning is VERY difficult. The Mogami's had problems from the get-go-too lightly built, for one thing--and twin 8's create much more stress on the ship that triple 6's.

The Scharnorsts would need a LOT of modification to install twin 15's--the new guns woulld, once again, be too heavy without major rework. The job was started on one of them, but never finished. Adding or changing guns isn't as simple as swapping in a bigger engine in a car.

Ammo handling wouldn't have been an issue, though, because ALL the ammo handling equipment would have to be brand new--another huge job.

I've toured USS Massachusets many times, poking in every spot I can. Anywhere shells or powder neet to go through holes, the holes are just barely big enough for them to fit. Powder scutles are JUST barely big enough to hold the powder bags.

In short, unless the ship was WELL designed for an upgrade, forget it-just build a new ship.
 

Markus

Banned
:eek:

Suicidal British bomber pilots, cause that Lancaster will be going right into the sea. Might as well leave the bomb in the bay and guide it in themselves.

What force had a 45% KIA rate? The German submarine force ... and Bomber Command. Dive-bombing with a Lanc would not be that much worse.
 
Lancaster dive bombing

The author wrote that the Lancasters attacking the Yamato would use the triple vic formation used by Stukas attacking RN destroyers in the Med, NOT actually divebombing! Second vic spaced wider than first, third vic spaced wider than second, to catch ship's captain avoiding to port or starboard.
 
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