Is a unified Hapsburg Italy possible during the 1800s?

[Darth_Kiryan]

Possible or Plausible, I guess I should ask.

Between the "destruction" or perhaps dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire by Napoleon, but even after the defeat of Napoleon in 1815, could the Hapsburgs possibly retake or retrain control of Italy at all in some way.

I do assume that this would have to be foresaking control of Germany and even Hungary as well, unless you can somehow divide the Hapsburg domains up between various claims, but is there a way at all for Italy to be unified under their control into the 1800s and 1900s? There were lots of Unification wars during the 1860s, so is it possible they can influence control of Italy instead of the House of Savoy. You could maybe get Maximilian of Italy instead of Maximilian of Mexico?

 

[Grey Wolf]

I did it once with Ferdinand Max

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

I think there is an opportunity, but it requires the Habsburgs to act very out of character.

Parting with the Kingdom of Lombardy-Venetia, even if it stays in the family, is unlikely as it was the Empire's main territorial prize from the Napoleonic Wars, without it they would have lost Belgium and much of Poland for nothing. Consolidating the Duchies ruled by their cadet houses goes against centuries of Dynastic politics. You would need an incredibly visionary Austrian Emperor, and for Metternich's efforts to roll back the clock to before the revolution to be abandoned before new liberal-nationalist revolutionary pressures emerge.

 

[Ukrainian Victory]

I think there is an opportunity, but it requires the Habsburgs to act very out of character.

Parting with the Kingdom of Lombardy-Venetia, even if it stays in the family, is unlikely as it was the Empire's main territorial prize from the Napoleonic Wars, without it they would have lost Belgium and much of Poland for nothing. Consolidating the Duchies ruled by their cadet houses goes against centuries of Dynastic politics. You would need an incredibly visionary Austrian Emperor, and for Metternich's efforts to roll back the clock to before the revolution to be abandoned before new liberal-nationalist revolutionary pressures emerge.

Seems like it would still be a sensible move, though: Give up a small bit of territory in exchange for securing a loyal and powerful southern ally. Comparable to A-H eventually giving up Galicia to an independent Poland in exchange for Poland getting a Hapsburg King and allying with A-H (and with Germany as well).

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Seems like it would still be a sensible move, though: Give up a small bit of territory

Lombardy-Venetia represented about a 3rd of the Austrian Empire's tax revenue. I agree, in the long run it would be the better investment, but in the short term it's like voluntarily having an entire leg amputated.

Comparable to A-H eventually giving up Galicia to an independent Poland in exchange for Poland getting a Hapsburg King and allying with A-H (and with Germany as well).

The one thing that might convince the Austrians to part divest themselves from direct involvement in Italy would be a desire to focus on contesting German leadership. That's the real full hindsight 1800s Habsburg Wank, Habsburg Italy, Habsburg Germany, and Habsburg Hungary-Galicia.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

The one thing that might convince the Austrians to part divest themselves from direct involvement in Italy would be a desire to focus on contesting German leadership. That's the real full hindsight 1800s Habsburg Wank, Habsburg Italy, Habsburg Germany, and Habsburg Hungary-Galicia

A literal mittle-europa?

May as well play some EUIV or Vic3.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

A literal mittle-europa?

But without the Kaiserboos

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

But without the Kaiserboos

Brings a whole new meaning to Holy Roman Empire.
😆

 

[Ukrainian Victory]

Lombardy-Venetia represented about a 3rd of the Austrian Empire's tax revenue. I agree, in the long run it would be the better investment, but in the short term it's like voluntarily having an entire leg amputated.


The one thing that might convince the Austrians to part divest themselves from direct involvement in Italy would be a desire to focus on contesting German leadership. That's the real full hindsight 1800s Habsburg Wank, Habsburg Italy, Habsburg Germany, and Habsburg Hungary-Galicia.

I understand that, but still, can't they recoup some of their losses through close trade ties with a Hapsburg cadet-led Italy?

The Hapsburgs did try to contest Germany in 1866, no? And having Hungary annex Galicia would be EPIC!

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

I understand that, but still, can't they recoup some of their losses through close trade ties with a Hapsburg cadet-led Italy?

Austrian economic policy was very protectionist.

The Hapsburgs did try to contest Germany in 1866, no?

Yes but with half their army fighting in Italy at the same time meaning they couldn't put their full weight into the fight with Prussia.

 

[Ukrainian Victory]

Austrian economic policy was very protectionist.


Yes but with half their army fighting in Italy at the same time meaning they couldn't put their full weight into the fight with Prussia.

Could they have close trade ties with Italy while being very protectionist in regards to non-Hapsburg countries?

Reasonable analysis.

 

[anotherlurker]

Could they have close trade ties with Italy while being very protectionist in regards to non-Hapsburg countries?

Reasonable analysis.

Yes, at that time exclusive trade deals between single countries were very common.

 

[Evil Crusader]

Even if they were willing to make the leap and consolidate the Habsburg areas under a single crown, there's still lots of problems with the idea.
An united Italian domain would be probably as strong as Hungary, if not more, and easily be perceived as a potential menace; more importantly, it'd agitate faster to be treated as a peer... unless it gets distracted wanting to reunite other Italian areas, which pits A-H against its traditional friend, France (Savoy being France's frenemy after all), the UK (who has a stake in the new Bourbon Kingdom in Naples) and a lot of its Catholic subjects (by taking from the Pope).
It also runs in the direct legacy of Napoleon, which is something the reactionaries most definitely do not wish to see validated, and frankly, from a 1815 POV, seems like a lot of trouble for no reason; Italy was on a centuries long decline, nobody expected it to be anything but a buffer zone between major nations ('a geographical expression'), and buffer zones get partitioned, not reunited.

 

[Janprimus]

How about an earlier PoD? A different war of the Spanish Succession, HRE Joseph has a surviving son, so his brother Charles can focus on the Spanish succession. The Habsburgs probably still lose the main price ITTL. Charles (IOTL HRE Charles VI) gets compensated with the kingdoms of Naples and Sicily, the duchy of Milan and the state of Presidi, the house of Savoy probably will get the kingdom of Sardinia.
Wild card will be the Southern Netherlands, maybe a compensation for the duke of Lorraine & Bar (these duchies will eventually pass to France, but are given to the Dauphin) with a de facto protection of Great Britain, the Dutch Republic and the HRE (Austria) against French aggression.

Still Naples, Sicily and Milan seem like a good starting point for an Habsburg Italy.