What would have happened if, in the 1780's, inspired by the American Revolution, New Spain, led by Jose de Galvez, declared independance from Spain? Would it be able to keep together politically and socially? What would have happened if they went to war against America, England, or France? Im going to use your answers for a new thread, so give your honest opinion.
Independant New Spain
- Thread starter Diogenes
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Interesting idea, and gives me more questions than comments. For example, the geography in question is so large. In 1780 are the lines of communication even enough to allow for such a vast territory to rise up together and with a common agenda? If so, Spain couldn't hope to send troops to put down everything, at least not at once. Thus there would probably be territories she would focus on and clamp down on to ensure she held them ... Ex. Cuba ? That would shift certain places out of any New Spain. I would think Spain wouldn't rest until she had regained the colonies up until the Nap. wars that is. Maybe there is an attempt in the 1780's that fails for various reasons but the seeds are sown for such a united revolution. They watch the young US slowly progress and then all jump at their chance for a more planned, organized, integrated, and structured fight during Spain's weakest point during the Napoleonics. Just my 2 cents.
As for conflicts with America ... a lot depends on what years they come to blows. I think the difficult points are bringing them together in the first places. Not my area of knowledge but it just seems very difficult. Even after that, how they would govern as a body seems pretty hard to keep the different regions from going their own way. Perhaps some type of confederacy that is very limited at first but slowly grows more federal as time goes on. How would Brazil fit into the equation as well? I like it ...
This is just Spanish America thats going to rebel. Heres a map that will show their growth from the rebelion in 1783 to the end of the American Civil War. The red (and neon green) is the territory they initially gain, the orange is what they gain after the Napolianic War, and the Yellow is what they get after the American Civil War. Also, the Neon Green is going to be the territory New Spain (new name pending) give's to the Central American Socialist Republic (name's from my other thread) in 1929. New Spains capitol is in Mexico City in 1783, then it get's burned down by Spanish Controled Cuba in 1810 and moved to St. Augustine. the CASR's capitol is in Panama.
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I'm just saying, all your scenario posits is a Mexico that rebels earlier and has more land. In fact, it could probably go under the name of Mexico. Only the slight expasion in NorAm, the Carribean islands, and Colombia are land that Exico did not hold IOTL at some point.
Faeelin
Banned
This is easy to fix. In 1808, the Bourbons flee to Havana, where they rule New Spain.
Hilarity ensues, and ultimately you get a Brazillian seperation.
Ok, here's my begining shakedown: In 1783, Jose de Galvez leads Mexico in a rebelion. However, while it is sucessful and Mexico bases its Con. on the U.S.'s, Jose is assassinated by a Spanish Loyalist in 1807 soon after taking Hispaniola. In the turmoil, the Bourbons go to Mexico City, and gain support and ultimatly power, forming the Imperial Republic of Mexico. Sound good? I'll start on a rough draft right away.
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So your POD is Jose does not return to Spain in 1772.
It looks like Jose would not have been a popular person in Mexico. He ticked off both the establishment and the populace.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_de_Gálvez
Ok, thats a very good point. How about Bernardo de Galvez leads the rebellion in 1785 and goes on to become the first Imperial President (or some other title). Then, when he get's assassinated in 1808, a brief period of termoil goes on until 1809, when Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla becomes Imperial President.
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That's actually (if you eliminate Panama and Colombia) the furthest extent of the Mexican Empire, which was New Spain plus the Captaincy-General of Guatemala.
At the end of the American Civil War, General Bernardo de Galvez was highly respected for his victorys. However, this worried the Spanish Crown, and so they ordered him to leave his army at New Orleans and sail to Mexico City for "further orders". Seeing through this bad excuse for him to be assassinated, he and his army, inspired by the Americans, marched west to "liberate Mexico from Spanish Shackles". He and his army got all the way to the Rio Grande until they were stopped by Bernardo's uncle, Jose de Galvez, who was sent from Spain to stop this upriseing. However, all of the troops in Jose's army, beside's the about 500 he had came with, were Mexican, and were very unwilling to fight their own brothers. The two army's negotiated for 3 days, and each night, some of Jose's men ran across the field to Bernardo's camp, and by the day of the fighting, Bernardo's army numbered around 46,000 to Jose's 31,000. At noon, the 2 army's moved into what would prove to be the only battle in the rebelion.
Bernardo's militia-backed veteran's cut a swathe through the Spanish left, and the extatic militiamen in the center pushed back again and again the Spanish charge. However, when the Regiment of Hibernia led the charge into the Spanish left, the Spanish militiamen threw down their arms, and many turned around and charged with the veterans! Eventually, after only 2 hours of fighting, those loyal to Crown fled across the river, while the Army of Mexico found its numbers bolstered. 12 days later, Bernardo arrived at Mexico City and declared the independance of Mexico. The terms agreed to were all Spanish territorys on mainland America and Jamaica would be ceceded to Mexico, and Spain would give 3 million gold coins to fund new roads and public buildings. On June 14th, 2 months after the Battle of Rio Grande, the Mexican Constitution is signed by Bernardo de Galvez and several other new government leaders. The first votes are held the next day, and on June 19th, 1785, Bernardo de Galvez is named the first Imperial President of the Imperial Republic of Mexico with Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla as Vice President.
Bernardo's militia-backed veteran's cut a swathe through the Spanish left, and the extatic militiamen in the center pushed back again and again the Spanish charge. However, when the Regiment of Hibernia led the charge into the Spanish left, the Spanish militiamen threw down their arms, and many turned around and charged with the veterans! Eventually, after only 2 hours of fighting, those loyal to Crown fled across the river, while the Army of Mexico found its numbers bolstered. 12 days later, Bernardo arrived at Mexico City and declared the independance of Mexico. The terms agreed to were all Spanish territorys on mainland America and Jamaica would be ceceded to Mexico, and Spain would give 3 million gold coins to fund new roads and public buildings. On June 14th, 2 months after the Battle of Rio Grande, the Mexican Constitution is signed by Bernardo de Galvez and several other new government leaders. The first votes are held the next day, and on June 19th, 1785, Bernardo de Galvez is named the first Imperial President of the Imperial Republic of Mexico with Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla as Vice President.
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