Harry Turtledove and his publishers suck!

[Diamond]

I bought a book - The Bastard King, by Dan Chernenko - about a year ago, thinking it looked like an interesting and offbeat new fantasy. I got about a third of the way into it, and couldn't go on. The writing was dry and repetitious, the plot was threadbare and silly, and the characters were boring and unsympathetic.

It reminded me of someone else's writing, but I couldn't quite put my finger on who... Then, yesterday, I was at my local bookstore, browsing, and I happened to see that the third book in this series is out. And the author is now revealed as Harry Turtledove. Ah-ha! It all makes sense now! No wonder I couldn't stand the book. Turtledove turned out some quality stuff a decade or two ago, but his recent efforts have been just horrible. I've vowed to never again buy anything 'hot-off-the-presses' by him.

It would've been nice if Turtledove and his publishers had put his actual name on the cover of 'The Bastard King' so I could have saved the money.

Just another shining example of why I hate the use of pseudonyms - let's muddy the waters a little more, shall we?

Anybody else get ripped off?

 

[Superdude]

No, because I actually liked the last book....

 

[Diamond]

I don't understand how anyone can like Turtledove anymore. His stuff is actually painful to read IMO.

 

[Evilmittens]

I don't understand how anyone can like Turtledove anymore. His stuff is actually painful to read IMO.

Ineed, if I have to read anything more about hi characters eating, or "chewing" on a thought for a moment anymore ill scream. Used to LOVE his stuff...not so much anymore.

 

[MrP]

I'm kinda mixed on Turtledove. On the one hand, his prolific writing does make a big impact. He's on of the first AH chaps I bought way back when. That said, I couldn't read him. He was just too dull. I ended up passing on the books to Khib Yusa and getting him to tell me what happened. But even he (and he reads like some of us breathe) has had problems with recent Turtledove.

EDIT: Actually, I guess that isn't kinda mixed, is it? It's just: a) I have more money than sense, b) I don't like his style.

 

[Superdude]

I don't understand how anyone can like Turtledove anymore. His stuff is actually painful to read IMO.

Personally I think he has gotten better, and while not exactly the best writer, doesn't necessarily make him bad.

 

[MrP]

Personally I think he has gotten better, and while not exactly the best writer, doesn't necessarily make him bad.

I wouldn't describe him as the worst writer. But I would be hard pressed to call him good.

 

[Superdude]

Never said good, just not bad.

I've read worse, and I can tolerate his style, so I seriously am not going to lamabast him for being shitty, because I have seen what shitty is, and it is bad.

 

[MrP]

Fair enough.

For me it's partly the length and the writing standard combined. They combine to dissuade me.

 

[TyrannusZero]

I like him, but to each their own.

 

[Diamond]

My point was that I feel ripped off by the publisher because of the pseudonym thing. If I'd known the book was by Turtledove, I wouldn't have wasted my money on it. Conversely, if more people had known he wrote it who were fans, they could've snapped it up immediately.

It just seems like blatantly false advertising to me when the put a blurb on the cover that reads something like, "A masterful fantasy debut by a new author".

 

[Flocculencio]

A condensed version of my well honed Turtledove rant

I wouldn't describe him as the worst writer. But I would be hard pressed to call him good.

He's your bog standard sci-fi/fantasy hack like so many others. This is not derogatory. Pulp hacks can turn out excellent work if they're properly edited.

At his best he can turn out good, pulpy fun like Agent of Byzantium, the Videssos books, the wonderful Tales of the Fox (which I've re-read many times) which are nice popcorn reads. Unfortunately, like David Eddings or Kevin J. Anderson, he got delusions of grandeur and decided that he could attempt to write epic-scale fiction. He failed miserably but people still buy his books.

As I said earlier, the main problem with his work is the lack of editing and the fault must lie with his publishers. His early work was all at Baen. Baen maintains a stable of hacks (Eric Flint, David Drake et al) and knows how to manage them. After all, they're the best pulp sci-fi/fantasy publishers in the business. Baen made sure to edit Turtledove properly. His later stuff, however, is published by Roc. Roc is obviously interested only in squeezing as much profit out of him as possible so they don't bother to keep a tight editorial leash on him. Thus, they let him spew the poorly-written, poorly thought-out and poorly-edited crap that passes as his "writing" onto perfectly good paper. Likely the only editing they do is to translate the crude glyphs he presumably hacks into chunks of driftwood into standard English.

As I've said before, I refuse to contribute to putting his kids through college- in the unlikely event that I want to buy any of Turtledove's future excretions I'll buy 'em from a second-hand bookshop or borrow them from a library. The same will go for anything Roc publishes.

 

[Sargon]

I used to dislike him intensely, but I have found some of his books to be very very good indeed. For example, Agent of Byzantium, and the incredibly excellent Justinian are very enjoyable reads I think.

I think I disliked his writing because he almost totally ignored naval elements in his World War series, which led me to think he had no knowlege of naval affairs, and especially since the Race had no concept of navies, what better way to confuse them, than to use naval attacks, especially from carriers to ruin their day? Alas, he wrote little about that, and I have not forgiven him until recently reading Justinian which is wonderfully done, blew my mind, and is right up my street. He knows his Byzantine stuff (not surprising since that was his area of study) and no mistake.

It's very easy for people to call some authors hacks, and some people even say 'talentless hack' but I wish I was a hack, then I'd be as wealthy as he is!

I get rather irritated when high-minded academics sniff at Norwich's Byzantium trilogy of books on Byzantium for example and dimiss and look down on him because he's a popular historian. So what? Such arrogance. If it wasn't for his books, I'd have never really got into Byzantium, and go on to read all the more academic works. And I resent that by implication they are are saying that I'm some sort of dunce for reading them. They should praise him for causing more people to become interested in it, I say.

For example, Dan Brown may be called a talentless hack by many, and yes, his writing is not great at all, and I don't particularly think much of him, but he's obviously not talentless...he has a talent for making money! . So what if he's a hack? He's the one with the last laugh, and I'd be happy if I was raking it in if someone liked my writing and I was selling well, so "what the hell!" I'd say and enjoy the fruit of my labours. If the ASBs body swapped me with him I probably would not complain too much, and maybe people might see an improvement in his writing, hehe. Everyone has different tastes after all, and that's fortunate! No one forces a person to read their books after all

I think that's a bit harsh about his kids Flocc, they haven't done anything wrong after all, why diss innocent children for the apparent sins of the father? I agree with dissing Turtledove, after all I did the same, but it's a little unfair to have a go at his sprogs unless they turn out a lot of bad stuff like him, as as far as I know they don't write books


Sargon (having a very bad day with everything going wrong, and wondering how many people might call me a hack in the future for my well intentioned writing, and an idiot for reading books by popular authors )

 

[Flocculencio]

I used to dislike him intensely, but I have found some of his books to be very very good indeed. For example, Agent of Byzantium, and the incredibly excellent Justinian are very enjoyable reads I think.

It's very easy for people to call some authors hacks, and some people even say 'talentless hack' but I wish I was a hack, then I'd be as wealthy as he is!

I get rather irritated when high-minded academics sniff at Norwich's Byzantium trilogy of books on Byzantium for example and dimiss and look down on him because he's a popular historian. So what? Such arrogance. If it wasn't for his books, I'd have never really got into Byzantium, and go on to read all the more academic works. And I resent that by implication they are are saying that I'm some sort of dunce for reading them. They should praise him for causing more people to become interested in it, I say.

Sargon (having a very bad day with everything going wrong, and wondering how many people might call me a hack in the future for my well intentioned writing, and an idiot for reading books by popular authors )

You're not getting my point- I don't mean the term 'hack' to be derogatory and I said as much. I know I don't have the staying power to write a novel- something all hacks can do. However, the fact remains that I don't try to make money out of my writing. As I said, Turtledove at his best wrote fun pulp fiction. I love Agent of Byzantium, Tales of the Fox and a whole lot of stuff he's done. I re-read Tales of the Fox about once a year.

But that makes it even more insulting when his later work shows that apparently neither he, nor his publishers, have any respect for his reading public but are rather capitalising on the loyal base that Turtledove built up and releasing poorly-written, poorly-edited trash. As you say, no one's forcing me to buy his books. I don't- not any more.

The reason I'm so vitriolic is that I feel he really let his public down. I felt the same way about Stephen King after Cell and the last book of The Dark Tower

For example, Dan Brown may be called a talentless hack by many, and yes, his writing is not great at all, and I don't particularly think much of him, but he's obviously not talentless...he has a talent for making money! . So what if he's a hack? He's the one with the last laugh, and I'd be happy if I was raking it in if someone liked my writing and I was selling well, so "what the hell!" I'd say and enjoy the fruit of my labours. If the ASBs body swapped me with him I probably would not complain too much, and maybe people might see an improvement in his writing, hehe. Everyone has different tastes after all, and that's fortunate! No one forces a person to read their books after all

Brown definitely has a talent for marketing. He should be praised as an entrepreneur. However that doesn't have any bearing on his writing. It's some of the worst stuff I've ever seen published and should recieve nothing but scorn. As I said that doesn't stop me admiring his talent for making money in the same way that I admire Rupert Murdoch's entrepreneurial talent. My admiration, however, doesn't change the fact that the world would be a slightly better place if Dan Brown hadn't managed to get his stuff published or if Murdoch had never established his media empire.

I think that's a bit harsh about his kids Flocc, they haven't done anything wrong after all, why diss innocent children for the apparent sins of the father? I agree with dissing Turtledove, after all I did the same, but it's a little unfair to have a go at his sprogs unless they turn out a lot of bad stuff like him, as as far as I know they don't write books

That was actually a riff on the fact that someone in another thread pointed out that his kids are of university-going age and he's probably milking the cow to pay their fees. It's an admirable goal for a father to provide for his children. That still doesn't change the fact that he's doing it by farting in the faces of his public every time he expels a book from his cloaca.

 

[Chris]

I think I disliked his writing because he almost totally ignored naval elements in his World War series, which led me to think he had no knowlege of naval affairs, and especially since the Race had no concept of navies, what better way to confuse them, than to use naval attacks, especially from carriers to ruin their day? )

He mentions (in ITB) that the race has been attacked by carriers...and is sinking them. They're just...not really that much use against the Race, which can sink them FAR faster than the humans can build them - about the only human weapon system that that's true of. Further, with the possible exception of Japan, NONE of the human powers have a strong incentive to build a navy with the WorldWar going on; it's just a waste of resources.

Now, on HT's work.

He is a BRILLIENT author when it comes to writing stand-alone books. TGOTS and RB and ITPOME are wonderful; I wish I could write like that. WorldWar wasn't bad - IMHO one of the best long serieses - but Great War started with a good idea...and then went off the rails. As others have pointed out, there are strong problems with the AH, which I can ignore if there is good writing, but...

I think to some extent that GW ran into the same problem as I did with THE SPACERS; the plot very much depends on what happened in privious books. He's either padding his books or trying desperatly to compensate; I'm not sure which. Telling everyone about Sam time and time again might be an attempt to keep us informed...or it might be an attempt to pad the book.

(Days of Infamy doesn't have that excuse )

Chris

 

[Sargon]

You're not getting my point-

You're probably right, I'm not in the best of moods today and my brain is a bit scatty after a series of disasters, so I may have missed something. Apologies if that is the case

That still doesn't change the fact that he's doing it by farting in the faces of his public every time he expels a book from his cloaca.

That certainly conjures up a rather messy image Made me laugh and cheered me up somewhat at least

Sargon

 

[Sargon]

He mentions (in ITB) that the race has been attacked by carriers...and is sinking them. They're just...not really that much use against the Race, which can sink them FAR faster than the humans can build them - about the only human weapon system that that's true of. Further, with the possible exception of Japan, NONE of the human powers have a strong incentive to build a navy with the WorldWar going on; it's just a waste of resources.

I didn't get that impression in the book. I remember there was a shore bombardment by BBs, and a carrier attack, and the Race was puzzled and astonished by this. There was no mention of the ships being sunk IIRC. I have a copy here in front of me, and as you know it is rather a lot of pages. If you could quote the line and page that mentions they were sunk in both cases, that'd be useful since I must have missed it.

Despite that very little is said about it. A mention is made of using submarines to transport things safely since the race can't detect them. Fast surfacing and diving submarines with guns or missiles could have been developed just as they were OTL (although admittedly, large gun carrying submarines weren't entirely successful OTL, although perhaps with more resources and research they could be made to be effective). I am just unhappy these themes were not explored more. The Race's lack of understanding and knowledge of the sea is a weakness that could have been exploited far more I feel, and since they are slow to adapt, could be useful. Yes, I know only coastlines would be affected a first, but better than nothing until more long range sub launched means is made available.


Sargon

 

[Flocculencio]

You're probably right, I'm not in the best of moods today and my brain is a bit scatty after a series of disasters, so I may have missed something. Apologies if that is the case

No problem- hope you feel better soon, mate

That certainly conjures up a rather messy image Made me laugh and cheered me up somewhat at least

Sargon

I'm glad it did

 

[Superdude]

Telling everyone about Sam time and time again might be an attempt to keep us informed...or it might be an attempt to pad the book.


Chris

Actually, I think he mentioned that Sam burned up easily a total of once in "The Grapple", and it was an offhand remark.

 

[Kit]

I agree that the last seven or eight years have been pretty dismal. In fact the only book of his I've liked recently has been the Shakespeare one. And that wasn't all that great, just mildly entertaining in a forgetable way.