Grey Wolf's 1840's War against USA

[Tom_B]

Recieved written comunications from Grey Wolf about one project as follows:

Refining the TImeline

Information gratefully received from people in addition to my own researches has led me to conclude that the POD envisaged for this TL is flawed and therefore needs attention. I am thinking of setting the POD back in the autumn of 1812 so that the Creek War, the British New Orleans campaign and the Treaty of Ghent will become integral to the reworked TL; as will the questions of Indians in US service...

(1) The Creek War

This was concluded by the Treaty of Ft Jackson

* To what degree was the Creek War tied up with Tecumsah's War to north?
I know he visitred then and prohphesied an earthquake which came to pass.

* How close were the battles of this war? How vital to victory was the leadership of Andrew Jackson?

* What were the stipulatiosn of the Treaty? When was it implemented? Were there any parts which delayed iin implementation or not implemented--or implemented only with a later show of force?

(2) British New Orleans Campaign

It appears that the British landed several weeks before they launched their attack at the Battle of New Orleans ( Jan 8, 1815) as evidenced by atracts from a letter written by a cpl of Kentucky Militia, Samuel Stubbs..

* I assume the British were establishing their bridgehead--how and where?
* What were the skirkmishes in this period?
* Did the British range far and wide in the countryside?

"On the morning of the 8th before daylight the enemy silently drew out a large force to storm our lines, where we were entrenched up to our chins... For an hour and a quarter the enemy obsinateky continued their assault; nor did they falter until nearly all their officers had falled. They the retreated leaving 1500-2000 killed mangled or prisoners. On our side our loss was limited to about 20 men."

* Was this the whole battle and are these true figures?
* Why did the battle go so badly wrong for the British?
* Why did the British attack before the arrival of the siege train--or was it intended for elsewhere?
* When they withdrew to Biloxi and captured Ft. Bowyer had this been part of the original plan or an emergency fall back?

 

[Tom_B]

More questions from the Wolf

Looking at the British New Orleans campaign in the round, some larger questions are thrown up:

* Why had the British waited until the Creek War was over before launching an attack that would would have been better while it was still going on?
* What was he overal British strategy? Did it call for advances into the interior and/or alliances with the Indians?
* What was the naval aspect of the British strategy? Did it tie in with or followup the Summer of 1814 events on the East Coast?

(3) Treaty of Ghent (Dec 24, 1814)

*What were the original negotiating positions of both sides? I know for example that Britian wanted an Indian state, presumably based on the Shawnee, but whether was to independent, autonomous or part of the Union, I don't know. I know Britain also wanted John Jacob Astor's sale of the Pacific Fur Company's assets incl. Astoria to the Northwest Company to be taken as British purchase of land and thus exempt from the clause returning all occupied land to the orignal owner.

* What were the other clauses of the Treaty? Did the uSA have any negotiating position on damages and compensation?

* Was the 1818 treaty establishing the 49th parallel as the border from Lake Superior to the Rockies something specified in the Treaty of Ghent , ie. was one of the clauses of the Treaty that a commission should be set up to look at the border to this end?

(4) Indiands in US Service

I read that Tecumseh tried to get the Iroquois Confederacy to join his struggle, but failed. I know that the Iroquois incl. the Delaware, Senca, Algonquin and the Cherokee. I also know that the US had friendly Indians on its side in this war--was this at offcial level, ie. did the tribal leaders decide it, or at a volunteer lebvel? Whre were the tribes based at this time--still in the northeast as this was before Jackson's removal act? I know that Geirge Guess Sequoyah served with US forces in the Creek war. Again was this a Cherokee decision, a Cherkoee subgroup or on the basis of individual volunteers?

 

[Tom_B]

Black Hawk Up

I've done some research on my own and have come up with a few ideas which I want to pass by the Board before I pass on to GW.

In OTL Governor General Prevost concluded an armistice with the Yanks that prevented Gen Brock and Tecumseh for following up on their intial successes. I could see Brock impressing Black Hawk who was not impressed with Procter. The whole Mississippi valley could become very nasty with the Chicamonga faction of the Cherokee reawaking.

The death of Brock is delayed and Tecumseh survives. Perhaps also Perry perishing before or during his flag transfer would yield a very different outcome on Lake Erie.

Could this lead to the US being forced to permit the creation of a multitribal Native American entity under British protection in the Illinois Territory with the border with the US starting at Ft. Dearborn and running down to the north edge of the Military District of 1812 in Illinois.

So we get a Native American protectorate of Sauk, Fox, proTecumseh Shawnee and maybe some Chiacumga Cherokee. Maybe Red Stick Creek would be allowed to emigrate as well. Could Tecumseh and Black Hawk cooperate postwar? Would the Indian protectorate provide the spark for AngloAmerican War in the 1840's?

 

[Tom_B]

Bump

I hate bumping but this is for someone else and someone on this Board must know a lot more about this period than me.

Any comments for me to pass on (yeah I already know GW was mistaken about the composition of the Iroquois Confederacy).

 

[Brandonazz]

THE Grey Wolf himself told you to do this? *swoons*

 

[Shadow Knight]

I hate bumping but this is for someone else and someone on this Board must know a lot more about this period than me.

Any comments for me to pass on (yeah I already know GW was mistaken about the composition of the Iroquois Confederacy).

I'd love to help you and GW out Tom, but I only know enough to be able to recognize what he's asking for sadly though not anymore than that.

 

[Darkling]

The Treaty of Ghent.

* Why had the British waited until the Creek War was over before launching an attack that would would have been better while it was still going on?

Mainly because he Britsih were less interested in the area that harassing the East coast.

* What was he overal British strategy? Did it call for advances into the interior and/or alliances with the Indians?

I believe they just intended to keep the lower area upto Baton Rogue as a bargaining chips (although of course it was redundant by that point).
i

* What was the naval aspect of the British strategy? Did it tie in with or followup the Summer of 1814 events on the East Coast?

In that it had broadly the same aims.

*What were the original negotiating positions of both sides? I know for example that Britian wanted an Indian state, presumably based on the Shawnee, but whether was to independent, autonomous or part of the Union, I don't know. I know Britain also wanted John Jacob Astor's sale of the Pacific Fur Company's assets incl. Astoria to the Northwest Company to be taken as British purchase of land and thus exempt from the clause returning all occupied land to the orignal owner.

The British aims as expressed to Prevost were the "restoration of Detroit and the whole of the Michigan country to the Indians" and "the maintenance of Fort Niagara and as much adjacent territory as is deemed necessary".

It is unclear exactly what the Britsih intended by restoring the area to the Indians, I would imagine they were bright enough to realise that the Americans would just run them over with a return to the status quo (which was actually included in the treaty in OTL) so they must have been looking towards a protectorate.

He was also directed to take up a forward position in the Lake Champlain area if he believed it would benefit the security of the province materially.

Beyond that it seems likely the British would have aimed for a favourable adjustment in Maine (where they had already installed a customs agent and begun treating the area as part of the Empire, the people there had also surrendered and agreed to follow whatever a peace treaty laid out for their future), above the Penobscot seems like the minimum the British would take in any victory situation.

The British peace commissioners were intillay instructed to pursue a peace on the principle of Uti Possidetis (each side walked away with the territory they controlled) but this was softened after news of the British walking away form Baltimore, losing on Lake Champlain and the stirrings in France.

In addition to the territory I mention above Hitsman (in his incredible War of 1812) says that such a peace could possible have included Plattsburg and Sackets Harbour.

The US delegates had been instructed to get an end to impressment, get a recognition of maritime rights of neutrals (no blockades etc) and amazingly to try and secure the secession of upper and lower Canada (one wonders exactly how deluded they were).

However the comisioners not being complete idiots (unlike Madison apparently) wrote back that the bets they could hope for was a status quo ante bellum.

It is Hitsman's opinion (I tend to agree) that had the Britsih offensive at Plattsburg been successful (and it took great incompetence to ensure it wasn't) that the Americans would have been forced to cede to Britsih demands (although by this point the British had lost Detroit so they have had to trade away Maine or something to get the native state, unless of course they had been successful elsewhere such as New Orleans and/or the New England situation had deteriorated with the British looking to menace the Hudson valley and possibly separate New England from the rest of the union).

* What were the other clauses of the Treaty? Did the uSA have any negotiating position on damages and compensation?

"All territory, places, and possessions whatsoever taken by either party from the other during the war, or which may be taken after the signing of this Treaty, excepting only the Islands hereinafter mentioned, shall be restored without delay and without causing any destruction"

The British however did keep the human shaped property they picked up and the Americans considered this a breech of the treaty, this was referred to arbitration in 1818.

* Was the 1818 treaty establishing the 49th parallel as the border from Lake Superior to the Rockies something specified in the Treaty of Ghent , ie. was one of the clauses of the Treaty that a commission should be set up to look at the border to this end?

No I don't believe so although a commission looking at the border in the Lake of woods area was set-up at Ghent.

(4) Indiands in US Service

I read that Tecumseh tried to get the Iroquois Confederacy to join his struggle, but failed. I know that the Iroquois incl. the Delaware, Senca, Algonquin and the Cherokee. I also know that the US had friendly Indians on its side in this war--was this at offcial level, ie. did the tribal leaders decide it, or at a volunteer lebvel? Whre were the tribes based at this time--still in the northeast as this was before Jackson's removal act? I know that Geirge Guess Sequoyah served with US forces in the Creek war. Again was this a Cherokee decision, a Cherkoee subgroup or on the basis of individual volunteers?

Some Indians on reservations in New York fought with the Americans, I believe it was in retaliation for some burnings although I don't remember if it as the British or their native allies who carried out the burnings in that instance.

Anyway according to "Incredible ...." the Americans had 1,050 native allies in New York and Pennsylvania from the Algonkian language group (specifically Brothertown, Delaware and Stockbridge tribes, these guys came mainly form a settlement at Rome, New York).

The other ones were mainly Iroquoian language with the subsets being Iroquois Cayugas, Mohawks, Oneidas, Onondagas, Tuscaroras and Senacas, these guys came form 17 reservations spread across New York and Pennsylvania.

The Americans also had 700 in Ohio which were mainly Delawares, Shawnees, Hurons and Sandusky Senecas.

The British had 2,000 in Canada and 9,000 in the old Northwest who comes from far too many groups for me to mentions (although I will field questions about whether this or that tribe was involved).

 

[Tom_B]

The Treaty of Ghent.



Mainly because he Britsih were less interested in the area that harassing the East coast.



I believe they just intended to keep the lower area upto Baton Rogue as a bargaining chips (although of course it was redundant by that point).
i


In that it had broadly the same aims.



The British aims as expressed to Prevost were the "restoration of Detroit and the whole of the Michigan country to the Indians" and "the maintenance of Fort Niagara and as much adjacent territory as is deemed necessary".

It is unclear exactly what the Britsih intended by restoring the area to the Indians, I would imagine they were bright enough to realise that the Americans would just run them over with a return to the status quo (which was actually included in the treaty in OTL) so they must have been looking towards a protectorate.

He was also directed to take up a forward position in the Lake Champlain area if he believed it would benefit the security of the province materially.

Beyond that it seems likely the British would have aimed for a favourable adjustment in Maine (where they had already installed a customs agent and begun treating the area as part of the Empire, the people there had also surrendered and agreed to follow whatever a peace treaty laid out for their future), above the Penobscot seems like the minimum the British would take in any victory situation.

The British peace commissioners were intillay instructed to pursue a peace on the principle of Uti Possidetis (each side walked away with the territory they controlled) but this was softened after news of the British walking away form Baltimore, losing on Lake Champlain and the stirrings in France.

In addition to the territory I mention above Hitsman (in his incredible War of 1812) says that such a peace could possible have included Plattsburg and Sackets Harbour.

The US delegates had been instructed to get an end to impressment, get a recognition of maritime rights of neutrals (no blockades etc) and amazingly to try and secure the secession of upper and lower Canada (one wonders exactly how deluded they were).

However the comisioners not being complete idiots (unlike Madison apparently) wrote back that the bets they could hope for was a status quo ante bellum.

It is Hitsman's opinion (I tend to agree) that had the Britsih offensive at Plattsburg been successful (and it took great incompetence to ensure it wasn't) that the Americans would have been forced to cede to Britsih demands (although by this point the British had lost Detroit so they have had to trade away Maine or something to get the native state, unless of course they had been successful elsewhere such as New Orleans and/or the New England situation had deteriorated with the British looking to menace the Hudson valley and possibly separate New England from the rest of the union).



"All territory, places, and possessions whatsoever taken by either party from the other during the war, or which may be taken after the signing of this Treaty, excepting only the Islands hereinafter mentioned, shall be restored without delay and without causing any destruction"

The British however did keep the human shaped property they picked up and the Americans considered this a breech of the treaty, this was referred to arbitration in 1818.



No I don't believe so although a commission looking at the border in the Lake of woods area was set-up at Ghent.



Some Indians on reservations in New York fought with the Americans, I believe it was in retaliation for some burnings although I don't remember if it as the British or their native allies who carried out the burnings in that instance.

Anyway according to "Incredible ...." the Americans had 1,050 native allies in New York and Pennsylvania from the Algonkian language group (specifically Brothertown, Delaware and Stockbridge tribes, these guys came mainly form a settlement at Rome, New York).

The other ones were mainly Iroquoian language with the subsets being Iroquois Cayugas, Mohawks, Oneidas, Onondagas, Tuscaroras and Senacas, these guys came form 17 reservations spread across New York and Pennsylvania.

The Americans also had 700 in Ohio which were mainly Delawares, Shawnees, Hurons and Sandusky Senecas.

The British had 2,000 in Canada and 9,000 in the old Northwest who comes from far too many groups for me to mentions (although I will field questions about whether this or that tribe was involved).

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I will pass it on to Grey Wolf who I am sure will deeply appreciate it.