Franco-Prussian War spins out of control into a World War?

At the moment I'm fiddling with an idea that sees the Franco-Prussian War turn into a World War in 1870. Frankly I'm having a hard time coming up with a possible action that would create such an event during the war itself. I really don't want to have a secret treaty between the French and someone. The Austrians though wanting revenge for 1866 know the Hungarians wouldn't support such a war. The Italians want stuff the French are guarding or have. The Russians, are not likely taking part in this and I don't know if its possible at first to get the British in on this.

So I'm asking you guys, what is possible to get the F-P War to go into a World War or start it on the path to becoming one?
 
Problem is, Napoleonic France pretty much put itself into a diplomatic corner by taking the responsibility declaring war : it meant that usual diplomatic partners would be at best considering a benevolent neutrality unless Prussia really searches to crush Frence for the lulz of it, which would likely lead to a stern talking from London probably followed by Bismarck acting normally again.
You'd need Prussia to declare war to France to really hope seeing France getting allies out of it (and it wouldn't be necessarily obvious), while Germany on the other hand would be isolated (Italy mostly wanted Rome at this point, having no real interest anymore on Savoy and Nice, and the Tunisian question not emerging at this point, so Italy joining is pretty much out of question, for either side).
Basically a Prussia without Bismarck acting really aggressively and without real care for consequences (think Wilhelm II but unchecked) could do it. But I couldn't see which allies it could gain.
 
Bismarck simply was too good a diplomat to let that happen. Take him out shortly before the war (but after 1867), he expected the war to happen anyway.
 
You need to prolong it first, so that other nations have time to intervene. A much longer and much more costly war, both in money and casualties will let others be tempted to join in.

Austria can join in to reverse their defeat of 1866, which might cause Russia to attack Austria, as they had gauranteed that to the Prussians beforehand. If Austria is doing badly (quite possible against both Prussia and Russia) and Russia is over-extending their demands and Austria is being stubborn, Britain might intervene to prevent a Prusso-Russian hegemony in Europe.

Italy might either attack Austria or France to gain territory, whicever seems most conventient at the time.
 
yep,if the germans march as quickly through france as it did OTL,no one will intervene on behalf of a obviously doomed nation.
 
You need to prolong it first, so that other nations have time to intervene. A much longer and much more costly war, both in money and casualties will let others be tempted to join in.

Austria can join in to reverse their defeat of 1866, which might cause Russia to attack Austria, as they had gauranteed that to the Prussians beforehand.

They did? Can please you provide specifics of that guarantee?

If Austria is doing badly (quite possible against both Prussia and Russia) and Russia is over-extending their demands and Austria is being stubborn, Britain might intervene to prevent a Prusso-Russian hegemony in Europe.

How exactly would Britain interfere?
 
Problem is, Napoleonic France pretty much put itself into a diplomatic corner by taking the responsibility declaring war : it meant that usual diplomatic partners would be at best considering a benevolent neutrality unless Prussia really searches to crush Frence for the lulz of it, which would likely lead to a stern talking from London probably followed by Bismarck acting normally again.

Usual diplomatic partners were mostly non-existant at that point: both Russia and AH were friendly to Germany which leaves only Britain with a very limited ability to interfere into the land war. It would not even matter who declared the war: Russia was anti-French and used French defeat to denounce the Treaty of Paris.
 
As everybody else is pointing out, you'd need a fundamentally different diplomatic situation in the leadup to the war for this to take place. Neither side really has the pre-built Great Power alliance network for it to spin off into a World War, or was particularly concerned about the winner provided neither side was beaten down unusually hard (The Spainish Crown issue having already been decided). I suppose, in theory, you MIGHT be able to get more sympathizers for France if its a case of Britain trying to mediate the question of the Sigmurindian Candidacy only to be rebuffed by the Germans, but that would require a case of the dumbs on the part of Berlin.
 
The problem is France was diplomatically isolated, the only great power that really had anything to gain from them winning was Austria and Bismarck had covered Prussias bases.
Bismarck may not have actually planned German unification but the franco-prussian war was genuinely a master stroke on his part
 
If he hadn't planned it, would he have worked that much for it?
He wanted to secure Prussian dominance of the southern German states but the man was no fan of Catholics, so he had no intention of unifying Prussia with them, unless you do believe him when he says it was his master plan all along, personally I don't.....And I'm a filthy prussophile
 

Lusitania

Donor
We would of needed the German unification issue still to be unresolved. Even a British king instead of Queen Victoria so that it still head of Hanover. So we have Prussia leading the charge to unify Germany with support of Russia against Britain and AH. France jumps in and we have a potential for Europe wide war.

Granted we need a POD set almost at time of Napoleonic Wars.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
They did? Can please you provide specifics of that guarantee?



How exactly would Britain interfere?

Based on later War Plans, the UK would invade Jutland then attack the Prussian Coast or the Russian Coast in the Baltic. The UK would also try to bring the Ottomans into the war to gain access to the Black Sea.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Usual diplomatic partners were mostly non-existant at that point: both Russia and AH were friendly to Germany which leaves only Britain with a very limited ability to interfere into the land war. It would not even matter who declared the war: Russia was anti-French and used French defeat to denounce the Treaty of Paris.

I think you can still get there. The Germans were very upset the USA and others kept resupplying the French. Adjust the land victories enough to keep the French in the war longer. Supplies become an issue, and at some point, the UK/Prussia relations deteriorate enough to get the UK in the war. If we are looking at war going into the second year, it is easy to work the butterflies to get the others in the war. Maybe then someone see a chance to take care of an issue while the UK/French/Germans are distracted. Russia wants to force the straights. Italians and/or Austrians see a chance to gain something, somewhere.
 
You would need things to be different, at the very least having a France that was capable of defending itself.

I did do a similar scenario for AHTG: An Austria-Hungary that got a worse treatment from Prussia and that had better relations with France ended up joining in on the French side against Prussia, along with Denmark and the similarly disaffected south Germans, prompting Russian involvement on behalf of Prussia.
 
I think you can still get there. The Germans were very upset the USA and others kept resupplying the French. Adjust the land victories enough to keep the French in the war longer. Supplies become an issue, and at some point, the UK/Prussia relations deteriorate enough to get the UK in the war.

There would be a problem: Germany did not have a navy and UK did not have an army. ;)

But this is quite irrelevant because your idea about pro-French Britain does not have traction with OTL reality:

"Britain viewed France as a serious threat to their position in Europe and wished to make sure France would be weakened at all costs. This view of French hostility from the British was solidified at the time due to the competition amongst both nations to secure and develop successful colonies. This often pitted the two nations against each other and created antagonistic economic policies toward one another. At the same time, Britain had natural inclinations to want to ally with Prussia due to their close religious roots and common rivalry with France. There had never really been much strife between the two countries prior to the early 20th century and the First World War. It happened to be that Britain and Prussia’s objectives lined up from 1870- 1871. Britain wished France to weaken as a nation within Europe to help maintain their dominance over the continent and Prussia wished to defeat France in a war they were confident in achieving victory in to help unify all of Germany under Prussia leadership. For these reasons, the ground was set for a natural alliance between Britain and Prussia and a mutual enemy of France.... After the war had been declared, a resounding amount of newspapers viciously blamed France for the war.... Several members of the House of Lords condemned these French actions." https://vc.bridgew.edu/cgi/viewcont...httpsredir=1&article=1125&context=honors_proj

There was also a recent (1869) crisis between Britain and France over the issue of the railroad concessions in Beligium during which Prussia reached to Britain offering a joined defense of Belgium in the case of French attack which contributed to the pro-Prussian sympathies in Britain and the sentiment did not change during the war.

As far as Britain was involved, the only question was a degree of Prussia's/Germany support which varied from unconditional enthusiasm (“The Queen [of England] rejoiced at the triumph of Germany. She completely identified herself with the German People.”) to a slightly more cautious views about degree to which Germany should be supported. But this belongs to post-defeat period when negotiations of peace began and, as Gladstone put it, France got some sympathy "because she was the worsted power". The idea, however, was not to come on the French side but just to limit size of the reparations and territorial losses.

If we are looking at war going into the second year, it is easy to work the butterflies to get the others in the war. Maybe then someone see a chance to take care of an issue while the UK/French/Germans are distracted. Russia wants to force the straights. Italians and/or Austrians see a chance to gain something, somewhere.

More of a fantasy unrelated to life. In 1870 Russia hardly completed its military reform by 1877 and in 1870 simply was not, economically and militarily, in a position to start a major war.
 
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