Conserved Boundaries (or, "The Anti-Damned Kazakh Border")

[oshron]

hey, all. in looking for new ideas for my ASB ATL, i read not too long ago that the Pinsk Marshes in eastern Europe have been so (relatively) impassible that they've formed a defensive border between Belarus and Ukraine for centuries. based on that, i decided that that particular border still exists in the ATL even as alot of others are changed, but even more recently i thought "Are there any other borders that would probably exist regardless of the TL?"

i figured this would be a good resource for everyone else, too, so here we are. does anyone know of any other such "conserved borders"? obviously the idea here is that it's borders that have existed for centuries if not millennia with few if any changes (off the top of my head, the basic geography of Iran might count, too) in contrast to the cliche of the Kazakh Border which anyone seriously going into alternate history knows shouldn't exist for anything with a POD earlier than about 1918 because of the extremely specific circumstances that resulted in it. for reasons which should be obvious, let's not bring up shoreline borders here.

 

[TRH]

I really don't know enough Iranian history, but is its basic modern geography a consistent border? They were so often extended further than present day, either westwards, like under the Achaemenids, or east, like under the Khwarazmians. In either case, the Iranian borders weren't their actual borders.

 

[Jito]

Korea? Although obviously the North/South split changes things, but the northern border with China/Manchuria has been pretty consistent.

 

[erictom333]

Obvious ones: Mountains. Alps, Caucasus, Himalayas, those are inevitable.

 

[AltoRegnant]

I don't think you can really get either Scotland or England to break past the marches long term. Even OTL whenever England got into Scotland proper, they never kept it. It's union or marches for the pair

 

[Arkenfolm]

The modern Germany-Poland border is surprisingly convergent with the border of 11th century Poland with the Holy Roman Empire.

The French border being at the Rhine is pretty obvious too since it's pretty easy to see anyone in charge there wanting to expand their territory to the Rhine. France's borders in general are easy to make at least somewhat convergent since in the south and southeast the Pyrenees and Alps, in the east the rugged plateaus and difficult to control Swiss territories, in the northeast the Rhine, in the north the lowlands and rivers and urban areas of Flanders which are easy to fortify against the French, and to the northwest the English Channel and a country which geography dictates will often be hostile to France and thus want to contain them.

Korea? Although obviously the North/South split changes things, but the northern border with China/Manchuria has been pretty consistent.

Not really, Goguryeo, Balhae, and Goryeo had quite different borders, as did Joseon at various times. The border was also vague with the Qing until the 18th century and the Japanese in the early 20th century probably could've pushed China to add Gando/Jiandao to their Korean territories.

 

[marcinL]

hey, all. in looking for new ideas for my ASB ATL, i read not too long ago that the Pinsk Marshes in eastern Europe have been so (relatively) impassible that they've formed a defensive border between Belarus and Ukraine for centuries. based on that, i decided that that particular border still exists in the ATL even as alot of others are changed, but even more recently i thought "Are there any other borders that would probably exist regardless of the TL?"

i figured this would be a good resource for everyone else, too, so here we are. does anyone know of any other such "conserved borders"? obviously the idea here is that it's borders that have existed for centuries if not millennia with few if any changes (off the top of my head, the basic geography of Iran might count, too) in contrast to the cliche of the Kazakh Border which anyone seriously going into alternate history knows shouldn't exist for anything with a POD earlier than about 1918 because of the extremely specific circumstances that resulted in it. for reasons which should be obvious, let's not bring up shoreline borders here.

Pripet Marshes were also more or less the border between Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Poland since the Union of Lublin

If you want a conserved border, Poland's southern border is almost 1000 years old

The modern Germany-Poland border is surprisingly convergent with the border of 11th century Poland with the Holy Roman Empire.

Until 75 years ago Polish western borders were result of 12th and 13th century family feuds

 

[GauchoBadger]

I wonder why the Russians and Kazakhs didn’t just agree to using the Ural River as a border.

 

[Nivek]

Maybe in some TL there not rusland but Kazakhsland?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Pripet Marshes were also more or less the border between Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Poland since the Union of Lublin

But pre Union Grand Duchy of Lithuania was fine having lands both north and south of these marshes.

If you want a conserved border, Poland's southern border is almost 1000 years old

For almost 150 years, from First Partition to ww1, Austrians controlled lands north of Carpathian Mountains.

 

[marcinL]

But pre Union Grand Duchy of Lithuania was fine having lands both north and south of these marshes.

For almost 150 years, from First Partition to ww1, Austrians controlled lands north of Carpathian Mountains.

Yeah, I meant the fact that there is border on Pripet Marshes is probably more result of the division of Rus between Russia, Poland and Lithuania and less the marshes being difficult to cross

But there was an administrative border between Hungary and Galicia

 

[Fabius Maximus]

Obvious ones: Mountains. Alps, Caucasus, Himalayas, those are inevitable.

Also the Pyrenees, which have marked the border between Spain (/Spanish kingdoms) and France for a thousand years or more.

I don't think you can really get either Scotland or England to break past the marches long term. Even OTL whenever England got into Scotland proper, they never kept it. It's union or marches for the pair

Lowland Scotland was under Northumbrian control for centuries during the Dark Ages.

Another good one is climactic borders. E.g., the northern border of China remained pretty similar for millennia, until the Manchu dynasty, because the steppes weren't really suitable for Chinese-style agriculture. (I'm not sure what changed in that regard -- new crops/farming methods?)

 

[Aghasverov]

Yeah, I meant the fact that there is border on Pripet Marshes is probably more result of the division of Rus between Russia, Poland and Lithuania and less the marshes being difficult to cross

But there was an administrative border between Hungary and Galicia

Although the Pripyat Marshes did protect Lithuania Propria from the Mongols to a degree... their horses couldn't cross it, so they said "eh, fuckit" and turned south and west

 

[Aghasverov]

I wonder why the Russians and Kazakhs didn’t just agree to using the Ural River as a border.

Most of the boundaries within the old Soviet Union were determined during the "Korenization" process of the 1920's-1930's, and Stalin put a much greater emphasis on ethnolinguistic divisions (which he manipulated somewhat to his liking, sometimes to "dilute" the native linguistic element with more ethnic Russians) than on historic or geographic borders...

 

[Aghasverov]

The border between Bohemia and Germany, through the Sudetens, the Erzgebirge, and the Boehmerwald has lasted with little change for a LONG time... with some... ummm... minor interruptions...

 

[Jan Olbracht]

The border between Bohemia and Germany, through the Sudetens, the Erzgebirge, and the Boehmerwald has lasted with little change for a LONG time... with some... ummm... minor interruptions...

Silesia, located north of Sudeten Mountains, was part of Crown of Bohemia for circa 400 years.

 

[Aghasverov]

Silesia, located north of Sudeten Mountains, was part of Crown of Bohemia for circa 400 years.

Yeah, but the various Duchies of Silesia were administered as a separate Crown Land... the border was still there, even they recognized the guy on the other side of the mountains as King

 

[Vinization]

The border between Rome and Iran suffered only minor adjustments for almost 700 years before the Arabs arrived.

 

[Gloss]

The border between Rome and Iran suffered only minor adjustments for almost 700 years before the Arabs arrived.

In the Levant upper Mesopotamia, in Armenia it and Georgia it changed a lot. Also it was rather just 500 years from Hadrian to the Arabs considering the Roman conquest of Mesopotamia.

 

[Vinization]

In the Levant upper Mesopotamia, in Armenia it and Georgia it changed a lot. Also it was rather just 500 years from Hadrian to the Arabs considering the Roman conquest of Mesopotamia.

It was more like a see-saw, right? Every now and then you had one contender surrender a particular territory/fortress, only to take it back in the next war, then lose it again, etc. Why are you counting only from Hadrian onward? Rome and Ctesiphon were butting heads since Crassus' defeat at Carrhae, well over a century before Hadrian's rise.

Also, the conquest of Mesopotamia was very, very brief.