Burgundian Rhapsody - the legacy of Charles

[AsukaEMP]

Bonus post:
Map of the Dutch Hapsburg territories in 1607.

Burgundy: The Netherlands and the Free County of Burgundy (William)
Green: Lands directly held by Charles
Blue: Julich-Cleves-Berg and associated territories (Philip)
Lavender: territories under Dutch Habsburg influence (Liege, Stavelot-Malmedy, Besançon)

Coat of arms of the rulers of the Netherlands

A variation of the Cross of burgundy used by the Dutch Habsburgs
Inspired by Burgundian military ordinances describing uniforms with a red cross over white and blue.

 

[AsukaEMP]

talk post because I feel like sharing some of my own thought

What about something like the Welser lease or the Guipuzcoan company for the Dutch? If Spain gets into too much debt you could see them leasing their colonies to their own family.

That would actually be a great option for some of that underdeveloped Caribbean real estate. Selling or leasing a few uninhabited islands in the Lesser Antilles to the Dutch cousins should be a win-win for both sides. Doubly so if they become personal possessions of the Lord of the Netherlands and he gets to rake in all that sugary revenue without having to bother with the Estates-General.

I actually thought about doing a Dutch Venezuela lease for quite a while but with the growing influence of Protestantism in the Netherlands I eventually decided against it. I'm still a bit conflicted on it, but with how things are going it would give the Dutch a several decades head start over the English and French in colonizing the Americas, and that seemed a bit unfair. As you can see we've also passed the period where the Dutch sent their first fleets to the east indies iotl so there's no Dutch colonies quite yet. But the English haven't sent one either (more details about their rebellion will follow soon). However what we're instead getting for now is that (in part due to the Habsburg Viseu branch in Portugal and in part due to the overwhelming domination of the Dutch merchant fleet) the Dutch role in the Portuguese part of the Iberian empire is increasing rapidly. They're just going through the formal Portuguese system instead of doing it one their own. There's still a lot of money coming in through this trade, just not the explosive incomes we saw iotl (and with a part of the profits is still going to the Portuguese government).

But with Dutch sailors now even going to India and seeing the riches of the east first-hand... How long can the protestant merchants of the Netherlands actually tolerate the (formal) Iberian monopolies on these markets? The dynastic relations of the monarchs are of course a hurdle to overcome, but as Europeans become more aware of the riches of the east the existing systems seem more and more unsustainable... And maybe some other powers in Europe have an interests in breaking the Habsburg unity? Two is a company, three is a crowd.​

Aha... And this implies that Marie Eleonore does indeed have an ATL counterpart, still maried to the Duke of Prussia? I think the power imbalance between the entire Burgundian Circle on one hand and early 17th Century Brandenburg-Prussia (if that union still happens) on the other hand is so strong that we could even entirely avoid a succession war in Jülich.

Yeah I ended up having her married to the Prussians still because, as you said, the power imbalance is so massive it doesn't really matter who she marries exactly. The Dutch have a population of over 3 million in 1600! The only member of the empire stronger than the Dutch Habsburgs are their Austrian relatives (and that's entirely due to Bohemia and Hungary), with nobody else even getting close. No matter who the opposing claimant is they would never stand a chance without extensive support from other princes. idk how big Julich-Cleves-Berg's population is (couldn't find any estimates) but if it's in any way comparable to the nearby eastern provinces in the Netherlands it's probably close to 100.000 for Julich, Cleves, Berg, and Mark... For each of them! (actually probably even more because I derived that from estimations of the Burgundian Netherlands in 1477, over a century earlier)

---

PS: I made a whole post yesterday about John II's reign and then made the bonus post almost immediately after, so here's a reminder it's on the previous page of the thread if any watchers didn't see it

 

[Xavier]

I actually thought about doing a Dutch Venezuela lease for quite a while but with the growing influence of Protestantism in the Netherlands I eventually decided against it. I'm still a bit conflicted on it, but with how things are going it would give the Dutch a several decades head start over the English and French in colonizing the Americas, and that seemed a bit unfair. As you can see we've also passed the period where the Dutch sent their first fleets to the east indies iotl so there's no Dutch colonies quite yet. But the English haven't sent one either (more details about their rebellion will follow soon). However what we're instead getting for now is that (in part due to the Habsburg Viseu branch in Portugal and in part due to the overwhelming domination of the Dutch merchant fleet) the Dutch role in the Portuguese part of the Iberian empire is increasing rapidly. They're just going through the formal Portuguese system instead of doing it one their own. There's still a lot of money coming in through this trade, just not the explosive incomes we saw iotl (and with a part of the profits is still going to the Portuguese government).

But with Dutch sailors now even going to India and seeing the riches of the east first-hand... How long can the protestant merchants of the Netherlands actually tolerate the (formal) Iberian monopolies on these markets? The dynastic relations of the monarchs are of course a hurdle to overcome, but as Europeans become more aware of the riches of the east the existing systems seem more and more unsustainable... And maybe some other powers in Europe have an interests in breaking the Habsburg unity? Two is a company, three is a crowd.​

Essentially, the spices are 'Portuguese', but the distributor for Western & Northern Europe is the Dutch merchant fleet. I don't think the catholic merchants will be salivating any less than their protestant collegues at the prospect of receiving a bigger share of the profits though. Even if the Indies (both of them) are mostly off-limits (at the moment), AFAIK that is not true for India. And I feel that those fishermen might soon want a place to stretch their legs and get some fresh water when sailing all the way in American waters.... Beaver pelts aren't quite as lucrative as nutmeg & cloves, but they do still make for a nice profit. So, a Dutch Canada & New England anyone?

Yeah I ended up having her married to the Prussians still because, as you said, the power imbalance is so massive it doesn't really matter who she marries exactly. The Dutch have a population of over 3 million in 1600! The only member of the empire stronger than the Dutch Habsburgs are their Austrian relatives (and that's entirely due to Bohemia and Hungary), with nobody else even getting close. No matter who the opposing claimant is they would never stand a chance without extensive support from other princes. idk how big Julich-Cleves-Berg's population is (couldn't find any estimates) but if it's in any way comparable to the nearby eastern provinces in the Netherlands it's probably close to 100.000 for Julich, Cleves, Berg, and Mark... For each of them! (actually probably even more because I derived that from estimations of the Burgundian Netherlands in 1477, over a century earlier)

Interesting that you (temporarily?) avoided a personal union. Makes the Netherlands slightly less of a near-hegemon in NW-Germany. Still, if/when an ALT 30YW breaks out, things are going to get rather interesting in that region...

Also:

A variation of the Cross of burgundy used by the Dutch Habsburgs
Inspired by Burgundian military ordinances describing uniforms with a red cross over white and blue.

Never seen that version before. Any heraldic explanation for the blue here?

 

[Opunium]

Love the story. Any info on William of Orange and his descendants ITTL? Maybe in a future update?

BTW Shouldnt the white and blue be reversed in the flag, according to heraldic rules?

 

[AsukaEMP]

Never seen that version before. Any heraldic explanation for the blue here?

BTW Shouldnt the white and blue be reversed in the flag, according to heraldic rules?

I based that one on one of Charles the Bold's old military ordinances from the 15th century. He had a kind of "proto uniform" so to say of a white-blue jacket with a red cross over them (you'll find a lot of depictions of it if you google something like "Burgundian Army"). As a I said it's just a variation amongst several that our Habsburg-Burgundians will use, but the white-blue-red colour scheme is going to be popular and become a common element. There'll also be striped or chequered backgrounds (like Ambrosio Spinola's flag iotl) The plain white field will also still be used, while the Spanish are going to move on to a yellow background instead (like Philip had wanted to iotl, but was only partially implemented).

It's one of the many ways the Burgundian Habsburgs are going to present themselves as the heirs/successors of the Burgundian dukes.
​

Any info on William of Orange and his descendants ITTL? Maybe in a future update?

William of Orange kept playing a big role in the Habsburg government until he died calmly of old age in his bed somewhere in the early 1590s.
I'm not going to be making special updates about them, but in future chapters you'll see some of their names pop up every now and then. Either as generals, admirals, diplomats, governors, etc. In fact one of them will even show up very soon.

Interesting that you (temporarily?) avoided a personal union. Makes the Netherlands slightly less of a near-hegemon in NW-Germany. Still, if/when an ALT 30YW breaks out, things are going to get rather interesting in that region...

At this point I'm just teasing you with this union lmao

 

[WunWun]

Very nice TL. Cool ideas and well written and realistic. I'm going to watch this.

One thing tho: how does the cultural sphere look in the low countries ITTL? Both painting and book printing were done on an almost industrial scale. And with the increase of the intellectual population because of protestant refugees, and no horrors of war, it can only grow imho.

 

[AsukaEMP]

One thing tho: how does the cultural sphere look in the low countries ITTL? Both painting and book printing were done on an almost industrial scale. And with the increase of the intellectual population because of protestant refugees, and no horrors of war, it can only grow imho.

I would also believe that the cultural sphere, both at court and amongst the many wealthy merchants, would indeed be flourishing around this time. For paintings it would probably look very similar to otl prior to 1600, just on a bigger scale, with a vast mix of styles and themes (including the predecessors of what iotl became exemplary of the Dutch Golden Age).
edit: just remembered that the 80 Years War caused a lot of artists to flee to England as well, no 80YW means most of these stay in the Netherlands and the English miss out on dozens of artists who made iconic art over there iotl (of course they can still be commissioned, but they'll be active more in the Netherlands)

Book printing is more interesting because it would look more different from that iotl. The Netherlands, and particularly Antwerp, is of course still a European centre of printing, but an important part of the later industry were political pamphlets and such... The Habsburg rulers here might be religiously tolerant, but they're obviously still going to censor open criticism of the monarchy just like any other monarchs tried to do. Books and printing are still going to be an important part of the culture, but it'll develop a different nature. It's hard to tell where the new centre for political commentary would pop up ittl though, Switzerland probably?

Also now that I'm talking about the arts. iotl a lot of the Burgundian crown jewels and renaissance masterpieces from the Netherlands ended up in Madrid or Vienna, but ittl a lot of those will stay in the Netherlands (or find their way back to the Netherlands sooner or later). Our Habsburg lords with their interest in their Burgundian predecessors reacquired the "three brothers" jewel from Elizabeth I after her defeat in 1588 (it had been in the possession of the English monarchs since the mid-16th century). They also inherited a bunch of other Burgundian crown jewels and relics, including the ducal hat (which iotl is lost to time), Charles the Bold's "unicorn sword", etc. (which are now all in Vienna) through Charles V, as well as paintings and tapestries that iotl all went to Philip II in Madrid (since there were no other sons). They also inherit the collections of Mary of Hungary and Margaret of Austria, including the Arnolfini Portrait. They also buy the dukes' court cup from the Austrians (or get it as a gift idk).

The Burgundians are also going to become a part of the "genesis story" of the Netherlands, along with the Kingdom of Lotharingia, and several Germanic and Gallic tribes (the Germanic-Gallic mixed nature of Gallica Belgica and Germania Inferior being used as an allegory for the now religiously mixed Netherlands).​

 

[Xavier]

At this point I'm just teasing you with this union lmao

Deep down I feared as much, I guess this is my punishment for being so strongly enthusiastic about the prospect of the United Duchies joining the XVII Provinces...

I would also believe that the cultural sphere, both at court and amongst the many wealthy merchants, would indeed be flourishing around this time. For paintings it would probably look very similar to otl prior to 1600, just on a bigger scale, with a vast mix of styles and themes (including the predecessors of what iotl became exemplary of the Dutch Golden Age).

Hmm, even more paintings than OTL, yikes, we're going to run out of wallspace to place all those... And then there's the tapistries...those are huuuge. The Coudenberg* is going to need an extension soon to fit all the art pieces and books it will end up housing.

* Please do make sure that TTL everyone is being very careful with candles in that place, especially around 1731.

 

[AsukaEMP]

English War of Liberation, Part I​

The Darkest Decade​

After the disaster of 1588 many English protestants, particularly merchants and members of the nobility, had left to country and fled abroad in the face of Spanish repression and the introduction of the inquisition. And with them they took whatever share of their wealth they could get out of the country in time. The 2 most important destinations of these refugees were Scotland and Germany (particularly cities such as Bremen and Hamburg), Elizabeth's son Edward was sent oversees and found refuge at the court of his paternal relatives in Hesse-Kassel. Others found refuge in Denmark or Sweden, Lubeck, East Frisia.

In the next decade many more followed, either people who needed more time to afford the voyage, or so-called "traitors" who the Spanish had decided to spare and send into exile rather than execute (this usually meant their "treachery" wasn't as severe, or as real, as the authorities claimed). With each new wave of immigrants and exiles came new stories of the "Spanish Tyranny". Also with these new waves another destination also gained importance (although never to the level of Scotland or Germany), the Netherlands. The Netherlands hadn't been an early destination for obvious reasons, but it was by far the cheapest and closest place to get to for most Englishmen so inevitably people still showed up eventually.

For an entire decade people left England, and in the short term this obviously was disastrous (even though it was only fraction of the total population)... But it also had some unintentional consequences that would come into play later. For with these immigrants came overseas connections, and with their stories came international outrage. And eventually the diaspore made connections with rebel leaders back home, who were becoming increasingly more organised.
​

The Powder Keg​

In 1598, a decade after he had invade England, Philip II of Spain died. He was succeeded by his grandson Charles II (a son of otl's Don Carlos, yes) who was 27 years old. Charles II, aware of the terrible finances of the kingdom and judging (or maybe hoping) that after a decade his aunt and her government in England should be able to keep England under control by themselves, made the decision to remove most Spanish troops from England. This move was protested by the English Catholics, but the Spanish welcomed the departure with enthusiasm.

It would prove to be a grave mistake however. The Spanish exit was a sign to the many protestants of England (which despite the Spanish's best efforts had remained a majority protestant kingdom), and the news of their departure reached Scotland and Germany about as fast as it could have. It was now that the new organization of the anti-Spanish front showed for the first time, during the departure England remained calm and quiet (for the most part)... But a couple of weeks after the last of the Spanish troops had left, with only a token force staying behind, all hell broke loose. Several revolts broke out all over England and Wales. Some of these were successful, especially in more isolated areas with a weak Spanish presence, others were quickly crushed. The greatest successes were in Cumbria as well as northern and central Wales, with other considerable successes in the Midlands and the Northeast (but in those regions important cities such as Newcastle Upon Tyne, York, Leicester, etc. remained in Catholic hands). In the south the rebellions were effectively crushed, southern England had both the largest concentration of Catholic soldiers as well as of fortifications... One noteworthy success in the south however was achieved by a single rebel, who had been employed in the royal army and was stationed in the Tower of London at the time of the rebellions. He blew up one of the storehouses there (not the White Tower itself) and fled into the night, depriving the Catholics of a part of their armoury. To this day the name of the soldier remains unknown, although later several people would claim to be the one responsible.

This in turn was a signal for the diaspora. English privateers began to sail out from Scotland and Germany, and from minor ports scattered around the English coast that the rebels had liberated. Others made their return over lands, marching down from Scotland at the head of loosely organised armies of mercenaries and English refugees, and their first targets were Berwick-Upon-Tweed and Newcastle. Other members of the diaspore made themselves useful in other ways, for example some had already installed themselves as bankers in the German cities and now helped to finance the rebels and organised the recruitment of mercenaries in Germany. The war had only just begun.​

 

[Miguel Demiurgos]

I don't know much, but if Don Carlos had a son, does that mean that Portugal is now more united to Spain?

 

[Aguss]

I don't know much, but if Don Carlos had a son, does that mean that Portugal is now more united to Spain?

Portugal was already attached to Spain. Too many marriages between both countries.

Charles had his claim to Portugal, but also Phillip (Charles's father) had his claim to Portugal as well. Father and son are children of Portuguese infantas.
Charles has the claim of his mother (Princess Maria Manuela of Portugal) and the claim of his father (son of Infanta Isabella of Portugal).

The only difference is that Charles (Phillip's son) had a greater "claim" than Phillip, but that doesn't really change things (Portugal is inherited by Spain).

Succession of Portugal (~1578)
King, Sebastian I of Portugal (grandson of John III of Portugal, son of Prince Joao Manuel of Portugal)

A) Offspring of King John III of Portugal (grandfather of Sebastian)
1) María Manuela of Portugal (dauther of John III of Portugal). Heir presumptive between 1527 and 1535. Married with Phillip II of Spain.
2) Charles of Asturias (son of Maria Manuela and Phillip II) (OTL he died, childless).
3) Charles II of Spain (son of Charles)

B) Offspring of King Manuel I of Portugal (father of John III of Portugal)
4) Henry of Portugal (son of Manuel), a cardinal. Childless.
5) Duarte of Portugal (son of Manuel), Duke of Guimaraes. Married with Isabella of Braganza He died.
6) Duarte of Guimaraes (son of Duarte), Duke of Guimaraes. He died, childless.
7) Maria of Guimaraes (daugther of Duarte). Married with Alexander Farnese of Parma, Piacenzia and Castro. She died.
8) Ranuccio I Farnese (son of Maria), Duke of Parma , Piacenzia and Castro.
9) Others childrens of Maria of Guimaraes.
10) Catarina of Guimaraes (daugther of Duarte) Married with Joao, Duke of Braganza.
11) Teodosio of Braganza (son of Catarina)
12) Others childrens of Catarina of Guimaraes.
13) Isabella of Portugal (daugther of Manuel I of Portugal). Married Charles V of HRE and I of Spain.
14) Phillip II of Spain (son of Isabella).
15) Children of Phillip II
16) Maria of Spain (daugther of Isabella). Married with Maximilian II of HRE.
17) Children of Maria
18) Beatrice of Portugal (daugther of Manuel I of Portugal). Married Charles III of Savoy.
19) Children of Beatrice.



I omitted some people who are dead, and more than half that I mentioned are dead.

The Portuguese throne (OTL, if Charles of Asturias died childless) was to be inherited by Henry, the cardinal.

Then by the Farnese, descendants of María de Guimaraes. And then by Catarina de Guimaraes, and the Braganzas (children of Catarina).

Unfortunately the Farnese did not have much influence in Portugal and were surrounded by Spain. To make matters worse, Catarina wanted the Portuguese throne for her and her children, and she had the power and influence of the Braganzas.
With a claim "divided" between the daughters of Duarte, it was easy for OTL Phillip II to take the throne after the death of Henry, the cardinal.


PS: In my opinion, Portugal would be independent if María Manuela has a daughter. A daughter who inherits Portugal from her mother, but not Spain (Phillip has sons with another wife). I doubt that Phillip will steal the inheritance from his own daughter.

 

[Deleted member 147978]

I wonder where's Scotland in all of this?

 

[AsukaEMP]

I wonder where's Scotland in all of this?

currently providing a lot of the mercenaries that marched into northern England, and harbouring English privateers even though they're "neutral". Combination of the English stories causing outrage amongst Scottish protestants, James VI not being too enthusiastic about the Habsburg empire on his doorstep, but also him not being certain yet about their strength or the chances of the rebels. Maybe he'll get more involved after the rebels score some big victories

I don't know much, but if Don Carlos had a son, does that mean that Portugal is now more united to Spain?

technically speaking it does strengthen their claim a bit, but in practise it makes no difference. As Aguss explained above.

 

[Aguss]

Before I forget ...

Wonderful story !!!

 

[AsukaEMP]

Please do make sure that TTL everyone is being very careful with candles in that place, especially around 1731.

I solemnly swear Koudenberg will be designated a candle-free zone

Wonderful story !!!

thank you! I'm not as satisfied with every part so far (might do a redo eventually) but I'm trying my best!

 

[Victoria]

I'm really enjoying this timeline. Who's Charles II's mother?

 

[AsukaEMP]

I'm really enjoying this timeline. Who's Charles II's mother?

For starters ttl's Don Carlos wasn't quite as bad as otl's version, but he still has.... issues. As for his wife it's one of the Austrian Habsburg daughters (I know, not doing the gene puddle any favours), probably Elisabeth of Austria (the one who married Charles IX of France instead iotl). Also Philip II stops marrying after his 3rd marriage, since his son lives longer and gets a male heir early in his eventual marriage.

 

[Xavier]

I solemnly swear Koudenberg will be designated a candle-free zone

Good, go... Hold on... banning candles outright would make evening gala's rather....awkward, no? Especially in winter. Just make sure no-one knocks a candle over into the curtains, so I can witness the Koudenberg expanding bit by bit to eventually rival the OTL post 1913 Vienna Hofburg in size and fame and I'm happy...or the finished Louvre, I'm good with both sizes (actually not 100% sure you could cram a Louvre-sized palace complex into Brussels)

For starters ttl's Don Carlos wasn't quite as bad as otl's version, but he still has.... issues. As for his wife it's one of the Austrian Habsburg daughters (I know, not doing the gene puddle any favours), probably Elisabeth of Austria (the one who married Charles IX of France instead iotl). Also Philip II stops marrying after his 3rd marriage, since his son lives longer and gets a male heir early in his eventual marriage.

And here I was planning to ask confirmation that surely Carlos II's mother was not a Habsburg...... Well, as long as the next queen-consort of Spain brings in new blood, the Spanish Habsburgs might stand a chance of surviving TTL?

Talking about marriages, have Willem & Filips van Habsburg tied the knot yet? (er, not with each other obviously, too much even for a Habsburg)

 

[WunWun]

Good, go... Hold on... banning candles outright would make evening gala's rather....awkward, no? Especially in winter. Just make sure no-one knocks a candle over into the curtains, so I can witness the Koudenberg expanding bit by bit to eventually rival the OTL post 1913 Vienna Hofburg in size and fame and I'm happy...or the finished Louvre, I'm good with both sizes (actually not 100% sure you could cram a Louvre-sized palace complex into Brussels)

>inb4 Koudenberg and the zonienwoud merge to give OTL versailles and its gardens a run for its money.
It'd probably be even more imposing, since Versailles was build over a short period (mainly under Louis XIV) while the Koudenberg palace already was imposing under Charles V, and only will be expanded further ITTL.

This in turn was a signal for the diaspora. English privateers began to sail out from Scotland and Germany, and from minor ports scattered around the English coast that the rebels had liberated. Others made their return over lands, marching down from Scotland at the head of loosely organised armies of mercenaries and English refugees, and their first targets were Berwick-Upon-Tweed and Newcastle. Other members of the diaspore made themselves useful in other ways, for example some had already installed themselves as bankers in the German cities and now helped to finance the rebels and organised the recruitment of mercenaries in Germany. The war had only just begun.

This sounds a lot like the start of the dutch 80 years war OTL....

 

[AsukaEMP]

actually not 100% sure you could cram a Louvre-sized palace complex into Brussels

good news, if we repurpose the Warandepark as a construction ground there'll be enough space! and the orchard next door can be cut down to make space for a completely new garden as well! Or we just cut the orchard and build new wings stretching around the park... or built a 2nd palace across the garden... So many options.

>inb4 Koudenberg and the zonienwoud merge to give OTL versailles and its gardens a run for its money.

unfortunately it's already surrounded by the city wall, as well as the city itself on 2 sides, so I doubt linking it up with the forest is really feasible... but what if one of the future rulers takes a particular liking to his hunting lodges at Dry Borren or Bosvoorde? Also plenty of space east of Antwerp, a bit more central and further from the French border as well... Vordenstein maybe?

Here's a map of Brussels from the mid-17th century btw, as a reference (south is roughly in the top right, and Koudenberg is the big building to the top left)

This sounds a lot like the start of the dutch 80 years war OTL....

will the Spanish ever catch a break? tbf, I did indeed base it largely on the early 80YW, but on a bigger scale and without the provincial state-generals and all that stuff... also it just seems like the most realistic scenario to me lol, people aren't going to keep sitting on their hands when such an opportunity presents itself. But don't worry, it will get worse!​

And here I was planning to ask confirmation that surely Carlos II's mother was not a Habsburg...... Well, as long as the next queen-consort of Spain brings in new blood, the Spanish Habsburgs might stand a chance of surviving TTL?

at least Don Carlos' own mother was only half a Habsburg... it's a start...