What if Anne of Burgundy, first wife of John of Lancaster, Duke of Bedford survive him and then remarried to sir Richard Woodville (like her husband’s second wife had done in OTL), becoming mother of an ATL Elizabeth Woodville who will become Queen Consort of Edward IV as her OTL counterpart?


Tree, and some nones for now with more material to follow
 
Trees
Anne of Burgundy (b. 1404) married a) John of Lancaster, Duke of Bedford (1389-1433) in 1423 b) Sir Richard Woodville, later Baron then Earl Rivers (b. 1405) in 1434
  1. b) John Woodville, Earl Rivers (b. 1435) married Anne Beaufort (b. 1435)
  2. b) Anthony Woodville, Baron Scales (b. 1437) married Elizabeth Scales, Baroness Scales (b. 1431)
  3. b) Elizabeth Woodville (b. 1439) married Edward of York, Earl of March (b. 1442)
  4. b) Sir Richard Woodville (b. 1441)

Edward IV, King of England (b. 1442) married Elizabeth Woodville (b. 1439) in 1457
  1. Richard III, King of England (b. 1458) married Isabella of Viseu (b. 1459)
  2. Elizabeth (b. 1460) married Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1459)
  3. Edward, Duke of York (b. 1462) married Cecily Bonville, Baroness Harington (b. 1460)
  4. Edmund, Duke of Kent (b. 1464) married Catherine, Queen of Navarre (b. 1468)
  5. Cecily (b. 1467) married John VI, Duke of Brittany (b. 1463)
  6. John, Duke of Bedford (b. 1470) married Anne de Mowbray, Countess of Norfolk (b. 1472)
  7. Anne (b. 1472) married Charles II, King of Lorraine (b. 1473)*
  8. Eleanor (b. 1475) married James IV, King of Scotland (b. 1473)
  9. Catherine (b. 1477) married John III, King of Spain (b. 1478)

NOTES:
*son of Mary of Burgundy and Nicholas of Anjou
 
And would living Anne at least delay Burgundian switch to Charles VII's side?
Possibly, but I do not know how much likely it will be as here Bedford will be dead before the date of his OTL remarriage to Jacquetta, depriving England of one of his most able military leaders and of a direct link to Burgundy earlier than OTL so is possible who things there will go more or less as OTL. Also is unlikely who Philip will be happy with the first reaction of the English Court to Anne’s elopement and secret remarriage (is not like he will be thrilled for that, but still...)
 
Notes on Edward and Elizabeth match
This scenario is something who I find highly interesting as ATL the reasons behind Elizabeth Woodville’s wedding to Edward IV can be many and her status as niece of the Duke oof Burgundy made highly plausible her match to the Earl of March also for political reasons (seeing the 15 years old Earl of March eloping with the 18 years old niece of the Duke of Burgundy would be a fun scandal but highly implausible), as having an English cousin three years older than March would surely push Charles, Count of Charolais to suggest a match between them once he is forced to renounce to his own match with March’s sister Anne. Also is highly likely who Elizabeth at this point is well know to both her Burgundian relatives and to her husband-to-be, as Richard Woodville would still go with Richard of York in Rouen and both men would take their families with them.
Cecily and Anne also are unlikely to develop any kind of feud because the prideful Duchess of York can not be resentful for being forced to give precedence to this Dowager Duchess of Bedford, as Anne’s rank by birth is undeniably higher than hers
 
The other advantage is that with less and richer siblings to provide for, Elizabeth isn't going to swamp the marriage market as she did OTL, which will also save her popularity a bit. Though she will need a bigger dower, which is less good.
 
The other advantage is that with less and richer siblings to provide for, Elizabeth isn't going to swamp the marriage market as she did OTL, which will also save her popularity a bit. Though she will need a bigger dower, which is less good.
First her mother is much richer than OTL, second if Elizabeth’s match to March happen under suggestion of her uncle/cousin (who would be most interested in such match) they will also contribuite to her dowry. Third Elizabeth’s father is a nobody but she has no reason for being unpopular here: she is marrying the heir of the Duke of York, not a King and she is doing that as niece of the Duke of Burgundy. Keep in mind who Elizabeth’s brothers also had made good matches, and who the Nevilles need to kept their contempt for Richard Woodville for themselves here (also Rivers will be already an Earl at the time of his daughter’s wedding)
 
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...an ATL Elizabeth Woodville who will become Queen Consort of Edward IV as her OTL counterpart?
OK, the idea is that Anne, surviving, parallels John's OTL widow Jacquetta by marrying Richard Woodville. The OTL marriage was unlikely (widowed royal Duchess marries commoner!), but it happened, so the ATL marriage could happen.

There would probably be knock-ons from Anne's survival and Jaquetta's absence, but it would take way more research to pin them down, so fuggedaboutit. Also butterflies.

However, the match between Elizabeth and Edward seems improbable for several reasons. First, Anne and Woodville, like Jaquetta and him OTL, would be Lancastrians.

Second, Woodville is a commoner, and Richard of York is highly unlike to marry his heir (the future King, in his mind) to Woodville's daughter. Her Burgundian ties wouldn't be worth much; her mother was a bastard, and her uncle the Duke had gone over to France long before. (Anne's survival might prevent that; but John's death and Anne's disappearance from court would pretty much eliminate her significance. BTW, John dying in 1433 instead of 1435 could have knock-ons.)

If Richard values the connection anyway, he's got four younger sons.
 
OK, the idea is that Anne, surviving, parallels John's OTL widow Jacquetta by marrying Richard Woodville. The OTL marriage was unlikely (widowed royal Duchess marries commoner!), but it happened, so the ATL marriage could happen.

There would probably be knock-ons from Anne's survival and Jaquetta's absence, but it would take way more research to pin them down, so fuggedaboutit. Also butterflies.

However, the match between Elizabeth and Edward seems improbable for several reasons. First, Anne and Woodville, like Jaquetta and him OTL, would be Lancastrians.

Second, Woodville is a commoner, and Richard of York is highly unlike to marry his heir (the future King, in his mind) to Woodville's daughter. Her Burgundian ties wouldn't be worth much; her mother was a bastard, and her uncle the Duke had gone over to France long before. (Anne's survival might prevent that; but John's death and Anne's disappearance from court would pretty much eliminate her significance. BTW, John dying in 1433 instead of 1435 could have knock-ons.)

If Richard values the connection anyway, he's got four younger sons.
Anne was a full fledged princess, the legitimate daughter of the Duke of Burgundy or Bedford would have NOT married her. Anne would likely remain close to her full brother, Lancastrian or not (and in OTL before everything had gone to hell Richard and Jacquetta were a lot closer to York than Somerset). Now is Burgundy who is searching ties with England and the Yorks in particular: Charles the Bold, who is nephew of Anne, wanted marry Anne of York, but was prevented by an agreement who forced him to marry in France. He has no sister, so offering his English cousin as bride to March would be a good replacement (also keep in mind who at this point Richard Woodville was already elevated to the Earldom so the girl is not so low ranking on her father’s side).
ATL when everything will go at hell, the Woodville will be on the Yorkist side of the conflict (as Elizabeth’s wedding and Burgundian ties will likely win over John’s marital ties) or neutral.
 
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Possibly, but I do not know how much likely it will be as here Bedford will be dead before the date of his OTL remarriage to Jacquetta, depriving England of one of his most able military leaders and of a direct link to Burgundy earlier than OTL so is possible who things there will go more or less as OTL. Also is unlikely who Philip will be happy with the first reaction of the English Court to Anne’s elopement and secret remarriage (is not like he will be thrilled for that, but still...)
Bedford dying in '33 means York's regent of France, with all the powers associated, so he'll get there earlier. OTL York succeeding Bedford was essentially regarded as "same dude here with a different name", so with York over there earlier I can't see the whole situation fudging.

I'm not sure, Anne of Burgundy provides a direct link still and as I said earlier, with York over tgere I can't see the situation going tits up enough for Burgundy to ignore both Anne and the English holding Paris.

Now if only we could get rid of the Beauforts........
 
Anne was a full fledged princess, the legitimate daughter of the Duke of Burgundy...
Right... I managed to confuse her with Duke Philip's bastard daughter Anne (her niece).
...at this point Richard Woodville was already elevated to the Earldom so the girl is not so low ranking on her father’s side...
Woodville was created Baron in 1448; he was not created Earl until 1466, after Elizabeth's marriage to Edward IV. The baronage came
in part because of Jaquetta's connection to Margaret of Anjou. So he wouldn't be a commoner, but still pretty low-ranked and definitely parvenu.

Even so, I can't see Richard of York marrying his heir to their daughter. That marriage is far too important to be expended when Edward is only 15, for a relatively small return.
 
Right... I managed to confuse her with Duke Philip's bastard daughter Anne (her niece).

Woodville was created Baron in 1448; he was not created Earl until 1466, after Elizabeth's marriage to Edward IV. The baronage came
in part because of Jaquetta's connection to Margaret of Anjou. So he wouldn't be a commoner, but still pretty low-ranked and definitely parvenu.

Even so, I can't see Richard of York marrying his heir to their daughter. That marriage is far too important to be expended when Edward is only 15, for a relatively small return.
OTL, ATL things would be different as Anne’s higher status would suggest to the King or his regents an earlier elevation of her husband to the peerage (as Baron Rivers or Baron Woodville) and raising to an Earldom the English brother-in law of the Duke of Burgundy for his military success would be a good political move once Burgundy started to get again closer to England.
Richard of York would not be well disposed in marrying his son and heir to a niece of the Duke of Burgundy (who has no legitimate daughter to offer)?
Jacquetta had ancestors, but was from a junior branch of a family in decline, Anne is daughter and sister of a powerful ruler who is a valuable ally for England (and that will make a lot of differe in how Woodville is seen and treated in the English court).
An alliance and blood ties with Burgundy is a small return for Richard of York?
 
This is an interesting and well-thought out ATL. Just two things:


Possibly, but I do not know how much likely it will be as here Bedford will be dead before the date of his OTL remarriage to Jacquetta, depriving England of one of his most able military leaders and of a direct link to Burgundy earlier than OTL so is possible who things there will go more or less as OTL. Also is unlikely who Philip will be happy with the first reaction of the English Court to Anne’s elopement and secret remarriage (is not like he will be thrilled for that, but still...)
I think perhaps there are bigger butterflies here in the 1430s than you're suggesting. Anne was reportedly Philip's favorite sister, and so I suspect his reaction would be much stronger than simple unhappiness at a lowly remarriage. It may strain or break the English alliance sooner, and that of course could upend the career of York in ATL.

But also ... the exact opposite may happen. Anne was a phenomenally popular figure in Paris and across English-held France across all social classes, and she was a not insignificant part of Bedford and Burgundy's working relationship. At the same time, her survival keeps Bedford's marriage to Jacquetta from hurting the Anglo-Burgundian alliance. It seems possible that Burgundy remains committed to dual monarchy for longer in ATL.

I could see arguments for either ... so maybe you're right that it's best to assume that things just play out as they did OTL here.


ATL when everything will go at hell, the Woodville will be on the Yorkist side of the conflict (as Elizabeth’s wedding and Burgundian ties will likely win over John’s marital ties) or neutral.
If Anne and her brother ever reconcile after the marriage fallout, I have to imagine that the Woodvilles would remain pro-Lancaster as they were in OTL -- at least until York won. Beyond Woodville's OTL connections to the Lancastrians, Burgundy needed a strong England to play off France in their decades-long three-way diplomatic games. Crushing a rebellion was in Burgundy's interest, and so that would have to be a concern for Anne.
 
OTL, ATL things would be different as Anne’s higher status would suggest to the King or his regents an earlier elevation of her husband to the peerage (as Baron Rivers or Baron Woodville) and raising to an Earldom...
OTL, Woodville got his earldom as the King's father-in-law. ITTL, he's the King's late uncle's widow's second husband.
the English brother-in law of the Duke of Burgundy for his military success would be a good political move once Burgundy started to get again closer to England.
You seem to be certain that Philip has some kind of high regard for Woodville, just because Woodville married his sister. Medieval and Renaissance history is replete with in-laws who loathed one another.

And those were usually related through marriages that were formally arranged by the families.

If the parallel to Jaquetta holds, then Anne married the low-born Woodville in secret, without permission from the King or Philip - a shame to the family. Philip would probably regard Woodville as a fortune seeker, an infamous upstart worming his way into the House of Burgundy.

In the era where divorce was nearly impossible, one common scandal was when a charming scoundrel induced some naive heiress or besotted widow to elope with him. Once they were married, the family was stuck with him.

IMO, any favor shown to Woodville would offend Philip. He would probably welcome Woodville's execution.
Richard of York would not be well disposed in marrying his son and heir to a niece of the Duke of Burgundy (who has no legitimate daughter to offer)?
Possibly. But it would have to be a negotiated family alliance, with immense political implications. IMO, Philip would not take sides in English politics with a quasi-rebel. And not a Woodville girl.
Jacquetta had ancestors, but was from a junior branch of a family in decline, Anne is daughter and sister of a powerful ruler who is a valuable ally for England (and that will make a lot of differe in how Woodville look is seen and treated in the English court).
See above.
An alliance and blood ties with Burgundy is a small return for Richard of York?
Not blood ties, marital ties - which were not particularly binding in that era. And an alliance?

York: "Hi there. I just married my son to a daughter of your sister Anne (the one who made that disgraceful marriage). So now we're allies. You will support me in taking the crown of England."
Philip: (to a courtier) "What has he been drinking?"

At best, Philip would just ignore the marriage. Anne has no chance of inheriting any Burgundian lands: Philip has a son, and her older sister has several children.

So York would have nothing to gain by this.
 
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OTL, Woodville got his earldom as the King's father-in-law. ITTL, he's the King's late uncle's widow's second husband.

You seem to be certain that Philip has some kind of high regard for Woodville, just because Woodville married his sister. Medieval and Renaissance history is replete with in-laws who loathed one another.

And those were usually related through marriages that were formally arranged by the families.

If the parallel to Jaquetta holds, then Anne married the low-born Woodville in secret, without permission from the King or Philip - a shame to the family. Philip would probably regard Woodville as a fortune seeker, an infamous upstart worming his way into the House of Burgundy.

In the era where divorce was nearly impossible, one common scandal was when a charming scoundrel induced some naive heiress or besotted widow to elope with him. Once they were married, the family was stuck with him.

IMO, any favor shown to Woodville would offend Philip. He would probably welcome Woodville's execution.

Possibly. But it would have to be a negotiated family alliance, with immense political implications. IMO, Philip would not take sides in English politics with a quasi-rebel. And not a Woodville girl.

See above.

Not blood ties, marital ties - which were not particularly binding in that era. And an alliance?

York: "Hi there. I just married my son to a daughter of your sister Anne (the one who made that disgraceful marriage). So now we're allies. You will support me in taking the crown of England."
Philip: (to a courtier) "What has he been drinking?"

At best, Philip would just ignore the marriage. Anne has no chance of inheriting any Burgundian lands: Philip has a son, and her older sister has several children.

So York would have nothing to gain by this.
You find so unlikely who Anne’s remarriage would be accepted by her brother once she is pregnant and do not regret it at all? Also York was NOT a semi-rebel for most of the time BEFORE everything had gone to hell and Burgundy was clearly interested in a marital alliance with them (around 1453-1454 Charles the Bold had sought a match with Anne of York, but was forced to renounce to it as he was forced by a treaty to choose a French bride. Is so implausible who having an English cousin of a good age to be matched with March, he would suggest that match (OTL only the younger daughters of the Duke of Bourbon were of the right age for March, but the Duke of Burgundy and the Duke of Bourbon do not had a good relationship and Charles’ own match with Isabella was the consequence of a truce)
 
This is an interesting and well-thought out ATL. Just two things:



I think perhaps there are bigger butterflies here in the 1430s than you're suggesting. Anne was reportedly Philip's favorite sister, and so I suspect his reaction would be much stronger than simple unhappiness at a lowly remarriage. It may strain or break the English alliance sooner, and that of course could upend the career of York in ATL.

But also ... the exact opposite may happen. Anne was a phenomenally popular figure in Paris and across English-held France across all social classes, and she was a not insignificant part of Bedford and Burgundy's working relationship. At the same time, her survival keeps Bedford's marriage to Jacquetta from hurting the Anglo-Burgundian alliance. It seems possible that Burgundy remains committed to dual monarchy for longer in ATL.

I could see arguments for either ... so maybe you're right that it's best to assume that things just play out as they did OTL here.



If Anne and her brother ever reconcile after the marriage fallout, I have to imagine that the Woodvilles would remain pro-Lancaster as they were in OTL -- at least until York won. Beyond Woodville's OTL connections to the Lancastrians, Burgundy needed a strong England to play off France in their decades-long three-way diplomatic games. Crushing a rebellion was in Burgundy's interest, and so that would have to be a concern for Anne.
The point is who once Henry VI married Marguerite, shifting towards France, Burgundy started to get close to the Yorks.
Charles the Bold, then Duke of Charolais had sought a match with a daughter of York around 1453-1454, before marrying Isabella of Bourbon. Offering their English close relative with a good dowry as bride for March (who was in any case the third in line for the English crown after the infant Prince of Wales and his own father) would not be a bad move. If Burgundy want an ally in England, York is the only choice as the other faction (headed by Queen Marguerite and Beaufort) is pro-French.
 
You find so unlikely who Anne’s remarriage would be accepted by her brother once she is pregnant and do not regret it at all?
When Mary Tudor married Charles Brandon without permission, Henry VIII's privy council wanted him imprisoned or executed, even though Brandon was a duke and his good friend. Henry let them off with an enormous fine. IMO, Philip would be deeply offended, and would want the presumptuous Woodville imprisoned or executed, and Anne sent home. (He'd probably want her sent home when Bedford dies.) The moderating factor could be that he hasn't seen Anne for ten years; she's left the family. But that would mean he is merely indifferent about the marriage; he won't like it or Woodville at all.

Also York was NOT a semi-rebel for most of the time BEFORE everything had gone to hell...
1457 is after:

1450-1451, when York filled London with armed retainers and demanded the removal of Somerset,
1452, when York marched on London at the head of an army, but was outmaneuvered and arrested
1455, when York led troops against the King at 1st St. Albans, killed several of Henry's most important councilors, and took him prisoner. He imposed himself as Lord Protector, but Henry soon recovered, and under Queen Margaret's influence pushed York and his allies out of power.
and Burgundy was clearly interested in a marital alliance with them (around 1453-1454 Charles the Bold had sought a match with Anne of York...)
That was when Henry first went mad and York had become Protector. In 1457, York was definitely on the outside looking in. For Philip to contract a marriage alliance with York at this time would mean taking sides against Henry and the ruling court faction.
 
When Mary Tudor married Charles Brandon without permission, Henry VIII's privy council wanted him imprisoned or executed, even though Brandon was a duke and his good friend. Henry let them off with an enormous fine. IMO, Philip would be deeply offended, and would want the presumptuous Woodville imprisoned or executed, and Anne sent home. (He'd probably want her sent home when Bedford dies.) The moderating factor could be that he hasn't seen Anne for ten years; she's left the family. But that would mean he is merely indifferent about the marriage; he won't like it or Woodville at all.


1457 is after:

1450-1451, when York filled London with armed retainers and demanded the removal of Somerset,
1452, when York marched on London at the head of an army, but was outmaneuvered and arrested
1455, when York led troops against the King at 1st St. Albans, killed several of Henry's most important councilors, and took him prisoner. He imposed himself as Lord Protector, but Henry soon recovered, and under Queen Margaret's influence pushed York and his allies out of power.

That was when Henry first went mad and York had become Protector. In 1457, York was definitely on the outside looking in. For Philip to contract a marriage alliance with York at this time would mean taking sides against Henry and the ruling court faction.
Read 1457 as consummated in that year, not celebrated.
 
Charles the Bold, then Duke of Charolais had sought a match with a daughter of York around 1453-1454, before marrying Isabella of Bourbon. Offering their English close relative with a good dowry as bride for March (who was in any case the third in line for the English crown after the infant Prince of Wales and his own father) would not be a bad move. If Burgundy want an ally in England, York is the only choice as the other faction (headed by Queen Marguerite and Beaufort) is pro-French.
I'm not sure I'm following you here. I'm not saying that an Edward-ATL Elizabeth wedding is unreasonable, but just that I think you're overemphasizing the impact this marriage would have on Burgundy and on Richard Woodville. Marriage often did not matter when it came to choosing sides in the WOTR -- see, for instance, Anne of York and Exeter.

With regard to the 1453-54 marriage negotiations, I think you're misreading Burgundy's intentions here. This did not signal Burgundy's early alignment with the house of York within the emerging civil war, but rather was an effort to retie Burgundy to England generally. Charles VII was in his 50s, and the Treaty of Arras did not extend Burgundy's special rights and privileges beyond Charles's reign -- they would expire when the dauphin Louis became king. Burgundy needed a strong England to deter any possible French aggression in the next reign. Burgundy had no daughter to offer for the newborn Edward of Lancaster, and York was protector of the realm. Wedding York's daughter to Burgundy's only son made sense as it would tie the two countries together against France. That this proposed marriage revolved around the future of France, not England, is best demonstrated by the fact that Burgundy abandoned these negotiations at the outbreak of violence in England, at which time Burgundy negotiated the Bourbon marriage as to ensure a truce with France. That is to say, Burgundy had no interest in York once it became clear England could not be depended on as an ally against France -- and so peace with France became Burgundy's top priority. After the Bourbon marriage, I can't imagine Burgundy would have much interest in who some lowborn niece he probably never met was going to marry. That would change drastically come 1461, though.
 
I'm not sure I'm following you here. I'm not saying that an Edward-ATL Elizabeth wedding is unreasonable, but just that I think you're overemphasizing the impact this marriage would have on Burgundy and on Richard Woodville. Marriage often did not matter when it came to choosing sides in the WOTR -- see, for instance, Anne of York and Exeter.

With regard to the 1453-54 marriage negotiations, I think you're misreading Burgundy's intentions here. This did not signal Burgundy's early alignment with the house of York within the emerging civil war, but rather was an effort to retie Burgundy to England generally. Charles VII was in his 50s, and the Treaty of Arras did not extend Burgundy's special rights and privileges beyond Charles's reign -- they would expire when the dauphin Louis became king. Burgundy needed a strong England to deter any possible French aggression in the next reign. Burgundy had no daughter to offer for the newborn Edward of Lancaster, and York was protector of the realm. Wedding York's daughter to Burgundy's only son made sense as it would tie the two countries together against France. That this proposed marriage revolved around the future of France, not England, is best demonstrated by the fact that Burgundy abandoned these negotiations at the outbreak of violence in England, at which time Burgundy negotiated the Bourbon marriage as to ensure a truce with France. That is to say, Burgundy had no interest in York once it became clear England could not be depended on as an ally against France -- and so peace with France became Burgundy's top priority. After the Bourbon marriage, I can't imagine Burgundy would have much interest in who some lowborn niece he probably never met was going to marry. That would change drastically come 1461, though.
Charles was already forced to marry a French bride by the treaty of Arras and his father was unwilling to break it so persuaded his son to marry a daughter of Bourbon. Also York was a royal Duke and the English equivalent of the first Prince of blood and the head of the anti-French faction so sponsoring a match between his sister’s daughter and York’s heir would likely satisfy Charles‘ wish to ties with England without damaging anything. York was still Lord Protector and in full power when Charles married Isabella of Bourbon.
 
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