An Age of Miracles III: The Romans Endure

As far as the long term sustainability of the Russo-Roman alliance goes, I have a few thoughts.

On one hand, it isn’t realistic for the relationship between two great powers to be smooth sailing for 500 years; nations have permanent interests, but allies and enemies are impermanent. Yet I’d note this isn’t a formal military alliance, and there’s also a number of factors in play here that discourage a breakdown of relations.

Crimea has been mentioned as a potential flashpoint, but even OTL the value of Crimea to Russia is vastly overstated, probably in part due to modern Russian astroturfing. On paper yeah, warm water ports, but having Crimea doesn’t do that for Russia without having access to the straits. So any war against Rhomania for Crimea is necessarily going to be for Constantinople. Given how high that sets the stakes, unless the opportunity arises to acquire Crimea through diplomacy, the risk/reward is strongly in favor of continuing to pay the sound toll and relying on diplomacy if there’s ever a need to bring Russian warships through the straits.

The Other potential area for conflict over their shared peripheries in the caucuses and OTL Romania, but again, the implicit threat of the straits being closed acts as a deterrent.

In general, that’s such a major pain point that Rhomania almost has to be the instigator of any breakdown in relations.
 
In regards to Russia; in OTL Russia has been a highly centralized country, both politically, culturally, and economically, and has had the frequent problem where the rulers in Moscow or St. Petersburg look out upon the Moscow/St. Petersburg axis, assume the entire country is like that, and overestimate their strength, Russian history is rife with rulers/leaders seeing their paper strength and theoretical strength and over extending themselves before a period of retrenchment and renewal/revolution/reform before starting the cycle all over again. This stems IMHO from the fact that modern Russia is by and large still Muscovy and the lands Muscovy conquered. The mindset remains that Moscow is Russia and Russia is Moscow.

ITTL Russia is highly decentralized and significant power rests with the villages/farms in the regions which themselves also have significant autonomy. I do wonder if this might cause the opposite effect to OTL to an extent. A Russia that is powerful and stable and advanced but is reluctant to throw its weight around because so much of the public looks at their little village/town/region, thinks all of Russia is just like this, and thinks it would be next to impossible for this collection of villages to stand up to Constantinople or Paris or Beijing. Where areas Russia IOTL frequently overextended itself and retrenched for a generation before trying again Russia ITTL could evolve into a country where it frequently could get more and could push father but just stops and takes the deal to end the bloodshed/dispute. Overall it would be an interesting avenue to explore and a very different turn of events if it comes to pass.
 
In regards to Russia; in OTL Russia has been a highly centralized country, both politically, culturally, and economically, and has had the frequent problem where the rulers in Moscow or St. Petersburg look out upon the Moscow/St. Petersburg axis, assume the entire country is like that, and overestimate their strength, Russian history is rife with rulers/leaders seeing their paper strength and theoretical strength and over extending themselves before a period of retrenchment and renewal/revolution/reform before starting the cycle all over again. This stems IMHO from the fact that modern Russia is by and large still Muscovy and the lands Muscovy conquered. The mindset remains that Moscow is Russia and Russia is Moscow.

ITTL Russia is highly decentralized and significant power rests with the villages/farms in the regions which themselves also have significant autonomy. I do wonder if this might cause the opposite effect to OTL to an extent. A Russia that is powerful and stable and advanced but is reluctant to throw its weight around because so much of the public looks at their little village/town/region, thinks all of Russia is just like this, and thinks it would be next to impossible for this collection of villages to stand up to Constantinople or Paris or Beijing. Where areas Russia IOTL frequently overextended itself and retrenched for a generation before trying again Russia ITTL could evolve into a country where it frequently could get more and could push father but just stops and takes the deal to end the bloodshed/dispute. Overall it would be an interesting avenue to explore and a very different turn of events if it comes to pass.
There's also little of the Mongol trauma there compared to OTL. If Prussia was, per the old saying, an army with a state, modern Russia is a security apparatus with a state. The whole edifice coalesced, in a very real sense, to go kill steppe nomads until they weren't a threat anymore.
So it's going to be a much easier neighbor to live with than has historically been the case.
 
What's slavery like in Rhomania? Are there any efforts to get it abolished?
There was a post or a series of posts on this a while back. If I remember correctly Cyprus sugar plantations were not great, but people generally had a path to freedom and some degree of legal protection. In the small amount of Rhomanian west indies colonies it's brutal and for little financial gain. Rhomania would do better by its self and by its people (slave and free) by just turning the islands into free ports and not playing the whole mercantilism game like the Spanish and Triunes.
 
There was a post or a series of posts on this a while back. If I remember correctly Cyprus sugar plantations were not great, but people generally had a path to freedom and some degree of legal protection. In the small amount of Rhomanian west indies colonies it's brutal and for little financial gain. Rhomania would do better by its self and by its people (slave and free) by just turning the islands into free ports and not playing the whole mercantilism game like the Spanish and Triunes.
wasnt there a post about how ethiopias economy is mostly slaves and coffee?
 
I love to see where this is going and your thought process. Each action taken will have a lasting consequence, both political and social. And youre just letting the story write itself.

I was sort of thinking that you had everything planned out up to & including the planting of the Roman Imperial flag on the Moon & the launch of the Imperial mission to Mars 🌝

Making it up as you go along might be both the best and the easiest. Predetermining final outcome and railroading the story one way does not feel very "real-life-like" (it's hard to predict every butterfly in advance, given the size and detail of the story). Of course, it can always be nudged in the right direction.

I have a few plot points that I want to happen, but how to get there and what happens in between is much more open. Only once I get much closer to events in question do things get much more filled in.

As far as the long term sustainability of the Russo-Roman alliance goes, I have a few thoughts.

On one hand, it isn’t realistic for the relationship between two great powers to be smooth sailing for 500 years; nations have permanent interests, but allies and enemies are impermanent. Yet I’d note this isn’t a formal military alliance, and there’s also a number of factors in play here that discourage a breakdown of relations.

Crimea has been mentioned as a potential flashpoint, but even OTL the value of Crimea to Russia is vastly overstated, probably in part due to modern Russian astroturfing. On paper yeah, warm water ports, but having Crimea doesn’t do that for Russia without having access to the straits. So any war against Rhomania for Crimea is necessarily going to be for Constantinople. Given how high that sets the stakes, unless the opportunity arises to acquire Crimea through diplomacy, the risk/reward is strongly in favor of continuing to pay the sound toll and relying on diplomacy if there’s ever a need to bring Russian warships through the straits.

The Other potential area for conflict over their shared peripheries in the caucuses and OTL Romania, but again, the implicit threat of the straits being closed acts as a deterrent.

In general, that’s such a major pain point that Rhomania almost has to be the instigator of any breakdown in relations.

In regards to Russia; in OTL Russia has been a highly centralized country, both politically, culturally, and economically, and has had the frequent problem where the rulers in Moscow or St. Petersburg look out upon the Moscow/St. Petersburg axis, assume the entire country is like that, and overestimate their strength, Russian history is rife with rulers/leaders seeing their paper strength and theoretical strength and over extending themselves before a period of retrenchment and renewal/revolution/reform before starting the cycle all over again. This stems IMHO from the fact that modern Russia is by and large still Muscovy and the lands Muscovy conquered. The mindset remains that Moscow is Russia and Russia is Moscow.

ITTL Russia is highly decentralized and significant power rests with the villages/farms in the regions which themselves also have significant autonomy. I do wonder if this might cause the opposite effect to OTL to an extent. A Russia that is powerful and stable and advanced but is reluctant to throw its weight around because so much of the public looks at their little village/town/region, thinks all of Russia is just like this, and thinks it would be next to impossible for this collection of villages to stand up to Constantinople or Paris or Beijing. Where areas Russia IOTL frequently overextended itself and retrenched for a generation before trying again Russia ITTL could evolve into a country where it frequently could get more and could push father but just stops and takes the deal to end the bloodshed/dispute. Overall it would be an interesting avenue to explore and a very different turn of events if it comes to pass.

Having Roman-Russian relations always being good over centuries is unrealistic, but I don’t think there is anything here that guarantees an explosion. The dynamic is completely different from the OTL Ottoman-Russian paradigm.

The strength of Russian regionalism will play a role here. The Principality of Scythia is the principality closest to Rhomania, and the one bordering Crimea. But its economy is heavily based on trading with the Romans and the Scythians wouldn’t want to disrupt that.

What's slavery like in Rhomania? Are there any efforts to get it abolished?

The end of sugar cultivation in the Imperial heartland significantly reduced the number. Most slaves there now are either given absolutely terrible & dangerous work (think ancient slaves being sent to the mines) but most are house slaves, working in rich households. Slavery in the Roman Caribbean is just as nasty and horrid as OTL West Indies plantation slavery, the only difference being a much smaller scale. No efforts to get it abolished.

This TL is so wide ranging that I've forgotten what happened with the Mongols? if anyone would like to summarise for me?

I haven’t done much, if anything, with the Mongols. Since the fall of the Yuan they’ve been off in their portion of the steppe.
 
Rhomania's General Crisis, Part 12.1: Choosing Sides, Part 2
Rhomania’s General Crisis, part 12.1-Choosing Sides, Part 2:

Athena’s efforts to gain secret supporters had focused on the army. She had not put comparable effort into the navy, which had declined significantly in strength since the end of the Great Latin War. It was at 91 battle-line ships (including 18 Sicilian) then but a quarter-century later is at 54 (including 11 Sicilian). Worn-out ships had mostly not been replaced, even the ones that due to corruption in the shipyards wore out much faster than expected. This had been done mainly for reasons of cost-savings, but naval men, denied opportunities for promotion and prestige, did not care for the ones responsible.

The bulk of the Imperial fleet is stationed at Nikomedia, across from Constantinople in its new base with more space than in the metropolis. There are provincial squadrons at Trebizond, Piraeus, Smyrna, Crete, Acre, Corfu, and Venetia. These vary in size and are mostly small ships, since their tasks are geared towards customs enforcement and suppression of piracy. Some of the squadrons have fourth-rate battle-line ships to give them more serious muscle, but none are comparable to the main fleet at full strength.

The Venetia, Corfu, and Piraeus squadrons all declare for Sophia but the others are for the Tourmarches, as is the main fleet. As a result, the naval balance is sharply skewed toward Constantinople, not Thessaloniki, which will be a significant source of problems, to put it mildly.

The problems start quickly. An important ally of Sophia is the Despotate of Sicily. Despot Andreas III has three tagmata under his command and 11 of the 15 battle-line ships that are on Sophia’s side. Admittedly, he currently has a rather large rebellion at Naples going on right now, but even so, it is important to have him on board.

But the other major Despot, Demetrios IV of Egypt, does not lean clearly to either side. Having been on the throne for only a few years, just like Andreas III, but a few years older, Demetrios IV also has three tagmata. (Their reputation though, rightly or wrongly, is poor in Roman eyes who do not think much of Coptic military skill, a sharp contrast to their opinion of Sicilians.) He has little in the way of ships, and most of those are on the Red Sea, but he has the vast grain harvests of Egypt.

Because of their command of the sea, the Tourmarches can communicate more quickly and easily with Demetrios IV, which probably makes the difference. The Tourmarches do have another advantage over Sophia here though, which is apparent in the first condition. Demetrios IV’s aunt Theodora, who had been a lady-in-waiting of Empress Elizabeth von Wittelsbach, has been in prison since the Night of the Tocsins in 1630 for her actions on that day. She is to be released and allowed to finally return to her native land for the first time in four decades.

But the Despot is more interested in the other conditions. Egypt had been the original model for the Despotate system, inaugurated near the end of the Time of Troubles, yet after the turmoil of the Great Uprising, Constantinople had imposed the 39 Articles on Egypt. These had sharply tightened Roman control and limited Egyptian autonomy, in stark contrast to Sicily and Carthage which retained the original loose model. The Despot wants the Articles gone.

Plytos and Nereas are seething when they hear this demand, which runs completely counter to their goals for the Empire. But at the moment they see little choice, not wanting him to turn to Sophia, and thus agree to the terms. The one change is that Alexandria will remain under direct Roman control. This will be most useful after the war when the Tourmarches intend to punish the Despot for his actions. What exactly that punishment would be is unclear, but Nereas comments that Andreas Niketas made a mistake when he conquered Egypt. “Instead of coddling the Copts, he should have massacred twenty or thirty thousand, as a reminder to these obstinate people of their need to be grateful and of their duty to obey.”

Despot Demetrios IV seems completely unaware of the plan to double-cross him and makes plans to intervene forcefully to fulfill his side of the bargain. The Egyptian tagmata are prepared to invade Syria while Egyptian grain is cut off from areas loyal to Sophia. The latter is a heavy blow as both Thessaloniki and Smyrna are used to feeding themselves with foodstuffs from Egypt, while Constantinople’s connection to Vlachia and Scythia are unimpaired.

Early spring 1662 shows another way in which Constantinople’s naval dominance imposes problems for Sophia’s supporters. The Kometes (Rear Admiral) of the Crete squadron is Petros Laskaris, who sallies out to attempt to seize Monemvasia in a surprise attack. He is beaten off by cannon fire from the Rock, but while rebuffed is hardly discouraged. He sails around the Morea and has much more success in his second venture, capturing Patras in a lightning assault. From this new base, he can harass the surrounding countryside and also threaten communications across the Adriatic between Messina and Thessaloniki.

* * *

The Pit of the Forsaken, the White Palace, October 5, 1661:

The only sound in the chamber was that of quill scratching paper. ‘Michael exhibits too much enjoyment of the inflicting of pain on subjects. The purpose of interrogations is to extract information and confessions, not to indulge urges of the interrogator. There must be no confusion on this matter in order to ensure timely and accurate results. Therefore, I recommend that Michael be eliminated from the program effectively immediately.’

Adam looked at the bottom of the piece of paper, then at the quill in his hand, and frowned. Then he kept writing. ‘This issue is readily apparent and should have been addressed well before reaching my position. Management, like Michael, must not fall into the trap of confusing gratification with results.’ He set the quill down and sealed the performance review. It wasn’t the most diplomatic conclusion, but he was at the age when showing respect where he felt it wasn’t due just felt like too much work.

Irene entered with a form just as he set the paper down. “Perfect timing as usual,” he replied as they traded forms.

“Thanks.” A pause. “This will be a tough one.”

He skimmed the paper in front of him. “And as usual, your analysis is also quite right. Have him sent in, and then make sure I am absolutely not disturbed until I request it. This one will have to be handled most carefully.” Irene nodded and left the chamber.

A few moments later the door opened again and a pair of guards came in, hauling a prisoner between them. The man’s hands were tied in front of him, although they also tied his limbs to the chair as well set in front of Adam’s desk. Meanwhile, the recorder set up his equipment.

Adam looked over the man. He was dressed in a tattered brown tunic, not enough for the coolness of the Pit, but while goosebumps showed and the hair on the back of his hands stood up straight, he was not shivering. He was thickly and powerfully built, with some of that moving to fat, but only some. His flinty gray hair still covered his head, albeit thinly, while his beard which had some white was scraggly and in need of a trim. His dusky skin contrasted with dark flashing eyes that met Adam’s own squarely and firmly. Many wills were already creaking at this point, before Adam had opened his mouth or raised a finger, but this one would be far different.

“Father Andronikos Hadjipapandreou,” Adam said.

Silence.

“Aren’t you supposed to say something like ‘pleased to meet you’?” the priest asked.

“Normally, yes. But that would be a lie. In other circumstances, I would be quite happy to meet you. But not here. I admire many of your sermons; it is good that our leaders be told from time to time of their failures and idiocies.” He looked over at the recorder. “Make sure that it is included.”

Adam turned back to face Andronikos, who was looking at him thoughtfully. “Is that a mental ploy to make me side with you? You’re the good interrogator, and later I’ll meet the bad one?”

“You are an intelligent man, but no. I work alone. There is the occasional exception, but your case will not be one of them. And I do want to make something quite clear from the beginning. I can, and will if I have to, do terrible things to do in service of the assignment. But I will not lie to you. Everything I say to you will be the truth, at least as I know it to be. If you would like, I can swear to that on an icon or relic.”

“That won’t be necessary; I believe you, although that is an interesting ethical line you have.”

“Honesty is truly the best policy. I find that if my subjects know exactly where I stand, they are more willing to meet my position.”

“Well, since we are being honest, what do you want with me?”

“Ah, unfortunately first, before we get to that, there is one piece of paperwork.” He pushed a form to the edge of the desk so that Andronikos could read it.

He scanned it and then looked at Adam in confusion. “A Consent to Torture form? What is this?”

“It’s exactly what it sounds like. You sign this, and it indicates that you have agreed that we may torture you.”

“If I don’t sign, does that mean you can’t torture me?” he replied skeptically.

“Of course not. Your signature has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not I’ll torture you.”

“Then what’s the point?”

“It’s a way of showing you’re willing to cooperate. Also, if a subject has agreed to the torture, they’re mentally less prepared to endure it since they have a sense of culpability. And there is the offer of medical insurance afterwards to cover medical costs incurred from the interrogation, which you won’t get otherwise. Although, frankly, the dental coverage offered is crap.”

“Interesting, but I’ll pass.”

“I expected you would, although you’d be surprised at how many people do sign.”

“Now can we get to the point?”

“Of course.” Adam pulled out another piece of paper and put it in front of Andronikos. “You’ve been saying things my employers don’t like. They want you to start saying they would like, such as this.”

There was silence as the priest’s eyes darted over the page. “This is terribly written,” he finally said.

“I didn’t write it. Of course, you’d be expected to phrase such sentiments in your own style, subject to review naturally.”

“No.”

“I was afraid you would say that, but I knew that you would. Which is why I am here talking to you. I am to persuade you to think otherwise.”

“I will not yield,” the priest declaimed.

“I’m sorry, Father. But you will.”

“No, I won’t.”

“You think so, but trust me, as someone who has been doing this for far too long, I know better how these things go. You have a strong will, a very strong will. It will take much time and effort, but your mind will yield in the end.”

“I will not,” Andronikos snarled, his nostrils flaring.

“You did it to yourself. Normally I would agree with you. But you also have a strong body, a very strong body. You’ve put a lot of effort into keeping it that way, and that’s especially hard once you get to your age. You’re in twice as good a shape as I was at your age. Undoubtedly you take great pride in it, although you’re careful not to show it. And that strength is your weakness. Your body will endure, long enough for your will to break. That is why I say that you will yield, eventually.”

Adam picked up a bell and rang it. A moment later the door opened and the guards entered. “Room 14,” he ordered.

The guards untied Andronikos from the chair. “This will not save your masters,” the priest said as he stood up.

“I never said it would,” Adam replied. “And that does not really matter. Masters come and go. They claim to be different, sometimes even better, and yet they all want men like me.”
 
Now it would be interesting if this Russia ends up being the big proponent of foreign interventions while Rhomania is one of the chief supporters of national sovereignty.
Perhaps, especially if ITTL Russia does not have the "siege mentality" that is commonly associated with the Russians OTL due to friendly relations with Rhomania and to a lesser extent Germany.

I haven’t done much, if anything, with the Mongols. Since the fall of the Yuan they’ve been off in their portion of the steppe.
The Mongols would be a good leeway into politics in the Mongolian steppe and Jurchenia for the Russians. The Northern Yuan (or their successors) may be quiet but they're still the rulers of that land.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
Would be a shame if Demetrios IV were to find out about the Tourmarches' hidden betrayal. 🤭
 
The future doesn't look bright for Sophia and her allies. I wonder what will change that, perhaps a certain adventurous prince will come back...
Besides this, it seems strange that there is no naval base in Thessaloniki .
 
Having Roman-Russian relations always being good over centuries is unrealistic, but I don’t think there is anything here that guarantees an explosion. The dynamic is completely different from the OTL Ottoman-Russian paradigm.

My point exactly! In contrast to the dynamic with the OTL Ottomans, Russia has a lot to lose from antagonizing Rhomania both economically and strategically, and are unlikely to cast the first stone. The Romans for their part have relatively little to gain; they’ve no interest in expanding into Russian territory, and any squabbles over Vlachia or the caucuses aren’t really worth escalating to war without Russia making the first move.

Without a long term buildup of tension and escalation, the likeliest scenario for war would come from them backing opposite horses in the concert of Europe, or spheres of influence in the far . Considering how readily the belligerents in that periods’ wars switched sides, there’s no need for that to lead to lasting hard feelings, and plenty of opportunities to limit fighting on their home territory.


Returning to the present though, the political situation in the despotates coupled the civil war is a situation that seems ripe for foreign intervention. Germany is dealing with its own internal crisis atm, in which Russia has involved itself but the Triunes, Lombards, and Spanish seem to have relatively free hands.
 
Things are not shaping up well for the empress. I think it's fair to say the qualifier that Egyptian tagma aren't considered to be good by the rest of the empire might mean we're in for a surprise from them.

I will say that I was hoping for a rather quick resolution to this. It's depressing to see yet another destructive civil war. I say that with no intent to impugn the writing. It's believable and great as always. It's just that sometimes you wish history went down differently.

The naval game being stacked against Sophia sounds like the perfect opportunity for an ambitious sailor to make his way up in the world.

Overall there's a lot to look forward to here. We've got a lot of focus, rightfully so, on the major civil war, but I'm eager to see how the war in the east, and the rebellions in Sicily and Anatolia factor in here.
 
Things are not shaping up well for the empress. I think it's fair to say the qualifier that Egyptian tagma aren't considered to be good by the rest of the empire might mean we're in for a surprise from them.

I will say that I was hoping for a rather quick resolution to this. It's depressing to see yet another destructive civil war. I say that with no intent to impugn the writing. It's believable and great as always. It's just that sometimes you wish history went down differently.

The naval game being stacked against Sophia sounds like the perfect opportunity for an ambitious sailor to make his way up in the world.

Overall there's a lot to look forward to here. We've got a lot of focus, rightfully so, on the major civil war, but I'm eager to see how the war in the east, and the rebellions in Sicily and Anatolia factor in here.
Lets assume Sophia is left a widow... which is to be expected. The empire doesn't have silly notions a commoner cannot rise to the purple or marry members of the imperial family. Just saying. :angel:
 
I will say that I was hoping for a rather quick resolution to this. It's depressing to see yet another destructive civil war. I say that with no intent to impugn the writing. It's believable and great as always. It's just that sometimes you wish history went down differently.
It's depressing, aye, but such things will keep happening every once in a while, these are still Romans
 
The Venetia, Corfu, and Piraeus squadrons all declare for Sophia but the others are for the Tourmarches, as is the main fleet. As a result, the naval balance is sharply skewed toward Constantinople, not Thessaloniki, which will be a significant source of problems, to put it mildly.
This is where a certain Leo makes his mark I imagine
Constantinople had imposed the 39 Articles on Egypt. These had sharply tightened Roman control and limited Egyptian autonomy, in stark contrast to Sicily and Carthage which retained the original loose model. The Despot wants the Articles gone.
This was something I thought would come up eventually but this is relatively early. Although if this conflict ends with the Egyptians feeling like actual valued members of the empire then that's great for the long term sustainability of the despotate system even with short term loss of control (hope Alexandria stays roman though I think it would be really cool if that city retained its greco-roman character all the way till the present)
“Instead of coddling the Copts, he should have massacred twenty or thirty thousand, as a reminder to these obstinate people of their need to be grateful and of their duty to obey.”
Damn, would be a shame if the despot learned of this attitude towards his people at an opportune moment. The tourmarches are the worst kind of jingoistic tyrants man F them
 
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