AHC: Sinicized Dynasty in Iran
- Thread starter Lothal
- Start date
A Chinese Dynasty industrializes and goes on a world conquest.
I am not going to say that it’s impossible, but it would required a lot of ‘cheats’ and have actual China be in control of Iran, otherwise whatever Chinese Dynasty that have control would have likely lost it’s Chineseness in the process of getting transferred to Iran as the Western Liao did. To my knowledge Western Liao wasn’t really Chinese in it’s political system.
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I doubt it's possible, but one POD might be to have the Ilkhan Gaykhatu be successful. He had successful foreign affairs during his rule, but domestically was a failure. He introduced Chinese style paper money to Persia, which even had Chinese characters on it since the block printers were Chinese and the equipment shipped to him from China, and attempted to create a fiat currency system to deal with the Ilkhanate's economic issues. It was a disaster and contributed to his overthrow by his cousin. Gaykhatu was also a Buddhist and like many Mongols patronised Tibetan lamas.
There's also a lot of Chinese-style seals the Ilkhanate used and some of their elites had been given Chinese noble titles, like the powerful emir Chupan was given the title Duke of Yi. This is because they were the closest ally the Yuan dynasty had since both of their ruling families descended from Temujin's youngest son Tolui.
There is also an interesting event where in the 1310s Ayurbarwada Buyantu Khan of the Yuan ordered translations of several Confucian texts and a Chinese agricultural manual into Mongolian, apparently intended for ethnic Mongol bureaucrats in relation to him reviving the imperial exam. IIRC this was not unusual since there were apparently other Mongolian translations of texts of subject peoples, but let us imagine that these texts are more widely distributing and make their way into Gaykhatu, who TTL has the health of someone like Kublai Khan and lives until the 1330s. Gaykhatu and his sons and grandsons accept these texts and use them as guides for leadership and governance, and various Chinese scholars are brought to the court as advisors or bureaucrats. So now you have vague elements of Confucianism in the government too informing its political philosophy. Of course, I'd expect this sort of Sinification would have plenty of Ilkhan elites (including ethnic Persians, Turks, etc.) accepting Chinese titles.
The Ilkhans imploded due to lack of a clear successor giving a casus belli for powerful generals to fight each other, but that wouldn't be an issue here since Gaykhatu did have a grandson who was installed as Ilkhan in that chaotic period. Unfortunately, there's also the Black Death to consider which devastated Iran and the fact that a primarily Muslim region with many powerful Muslim emirs will resent a Buddhist dynasty ruling it. I doubt it's something that would survive much past the 1350s, since some conquerer be it an alt-Timur or Anatolian Turks will score a major victory and cause the local emirs to defect and start a chain reaction that brings everything down. Long term influences might be bits of Chinese technology, artistic and architectural design, and perhaps Buddhist influences on some of the Sufi orders. Confucianism might survive in diluted form in terms of how Iran perceives it relative to the world and in the political philosophy of its next rulers.
None of this would necessarily count as a truly Sinified dynasty--like for instance they won't be writing Persian or Arabic in Chinese characters or using Chinese in their bureaucracy, although maybe they would try and write Persian in the Tibetan Phagspa since the Mongols intended it would become the universal script. But it's probably one of the better possibilities for anything approaching it.
There's also a lot of Chinese-style seals the Ilkhanate used and some of their elites had been given Chinese noble titles, like the powerful emir Chupan was given the title Duke of Yi. This is because they were the closest ally the Yuan dynasty had since both of their ruling families descended from Temujin's youngest son Tolui.
There is also an interesting event where in the 1310s Ayurbarwada Buyantu Khan of the Yuan ordered translations of several Confucian texts and a Chinese agricultural manual into Mongolian, apparently intended for ethnic Mongol bureaucrats in relation to him reviving the imperial exam. IIRC this was not unusual since there were apparently other Mongolian translations of texts of subject peoples, but let us imagine that these texts are more widely distributing and make their way into Gaykhatu, who TTL has the health of someone like Kublai Khan and lives until the 1330s. Gaykhatu and his sons and grandsons accept these texts and use them as guides for leadership and governance, and various Chinese scholars are brought to the court as advisors or bureaucrats. So now you have vague elements of Confucianism in the government too informing its political philosophy. Of course, I'd expect this sort of Sinification would have plenty of Ilkhan elites (including ethnic Persians, Turks, etc.) accepting Chinese titles.
The Ilkhans imploded due to lack of a clear successor giving a casus belli for powerful generals to fight each other, but that wouldn't be an issue here since Gaykhatu did have a grandson who was installed as Ilkhan in that chaotic period. Unfortunately, there's also the Black Death to consider which devastated Iran and the fact that a primarily Muslim region with many powerful Muslim emirs will resent a Buddhist dynasty ruling it. I doubt it's something that would survive much past the 1350s, since some conquerer be it an alt-Timur or Anatolian Turks will score a major victory and cause the local emirs to defect and start a chain reaction that brings everything down. Long term influences might be bits of Chinese technology, artistic and architectural design, and perhaps Buddhist influences on some of the Sufi orders. Confucianism might survive in diluted form in terms of how Iran perceives it relative to the world and in the political philosophy of its next rulers.
None of this would necessarily count as a truly Sinified dynasty--like for instance they won't be writing Persian or Arabic in Chinese characters or using Chinese in their bureaucracy, although maybe they would try and write Persian in the Tibetan Phagspa since the Mongols intended it would become the universal script. But it's probably one of the better possibilities for anything approaching it.
How about a Chinese influenced Pre Islamic Persian ruler who is boosted through Silk Road trade between China and Europe?
it is really hard to keep a chinise system outside of china especially when you are confederation of step nomads
Some Chinese client state is probably best possible with any recognsible historic POD.
If we want to get technical they said in Iran not all of Iran a tang client state on the fringes of central asia is possible
And even that wouldn't work really long. Chinese rulers probably still would adopt Persian language like Manchus eventually adopted Chinese. And them should too eventually convert to Islam since Iranians hardly accept non-Muslim dynasty easily unless POD is before Muslim invasion.
Based on how far the tang dynasty projected influence west, a china that owns Transoxiana and Khorasan (Chorasan on the map) might be possible
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
from here assuming a strong western fronter can be maintained long term it might be possible for there to be a push south to Baluchistan allowing for a western chinese port so the frontier does not need to resuplied via overland shipping from the now distant chinese core and allowing for what i assume to be a much needed relife to chinese supply lines projecting power this far west
en.wikipedia.org
In the most ambitious China wanks that also have them with a powerful navy (perhaps a western port might encourage a more serios naval effort then otl) i could see a long term western push converging by land and sea culminating in a drive either west or east to seize major centers of trade naboring Baluchistan such as the area around Hormuz or the mouth of the Indus.
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
Transoxiana - Wikipedia
Greater Khorasan - Wikipedia
Tang dynasty - Wikipedia
Balochistan - Wikipedia
Strait of Hormuz - Wikipedia
Sindh - Wikipedia
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Any possibility of sinicised descendants of Yazdegerd being reinstalled in (part of?) Iran with Tang backing?
Its possible, im not sure how likely it is but assuming it is done it would add legitimacy to the Persian administration and allow them to gain collaborators among the remaining Zoroastrians (if we are working with a tang dynasty pod then there are still a decent amount of them). Though this Persian state would have to remain reliant on Chinese backing in order to make it Sinicized instead of just a Persia that is part of the Chinese tributary system. perhaps have large Chinese garrisons permanently stationed in eastern Persia and as a result set up family's which in turn inject a large Chinese contingent into the local area population over time given enough generations. Also if this is a rump Persian empire made up of the east as mentioned before then it cuts out a lot of the Persian language core of this would be rump state so while this may effect stability it actually may lend a hand to the cause of Sinicizing as it may open up a means to make a Chinese dialect at least a court language if there is intermarriage between the Persian and Chinese administrations and possibly into the royal family at a later date since Persian has been otherwise marginalized by being separated from most of its linguistic center further west. given enough time i dont think your going to make a Chinese dialect (or Sinicized Persian dialect?) the main language of the commoners but given a few century's it might become what English is for much of otl Europe where people use it as a second language (a person from Spain can go to Germany and still be able to communicate by with a good chunk of people by speaking English since its a common second language.)
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That wasn't the case in this era since Central Asia was far more Persian and less Turkic. This was the heartland of the Sogdian people and their rich culture, and adjacent to them was ancient Chorasmia which spoke a related language.
Which of course that leads to the question of just what the Turkic tribes are doing in this scenario.
I do not know exactly about China owned by exactly eastern Iran, most of Afghanistan, and parts of Central Asia, because of the distance between China and Iran. However, I can see a tributary dynasty of China emerge because of the Silk Road, a dynasty that is ethnically Iranian, but is enamored with Chinese society and culture, and which trades along the Silk Road with China.
There has to have some kind of incentives, political, economic and social safety to adapt Chinese system. Chinese system had to enter central Asia and Iran before Islam became a dominate force. There used to be a battle between Islam and Buddhism in Central Asia around 10th century or so.
If Liao had conquered central Asia during early 10 century, there would be a chance for central Asia and even Iran to adapt Chinese System.
If Liao had conquered central Asia during early 10 century, there would be a chance for central Asia and even Iran to adapt Chinese System.
maybe the sui dynasty does not collapse and so tang expansion is done earlier so instead of conquering anxi in 650s it would be in 630s
I feel like the inverse would be possible, with Chinese migrants in Iran writing in Xiao'erjing (Perso-Arabic script for Mandarin) regardless of their religion.
In any case, it's still a huge stretch for any Iranian dynasty to be fully Sinicised. The most likely, if still fairly distant scenario, is a Iranic tributary state in China's periphery, such as in Khorasan or the Fergana valley.
In this scenario it would have to be Phagspa because of the Tibetan influence on the ruling class. Xiao'erjing was strictly a Chinese Muslim thing, and possibly only even used in some parts of that community in this era since the oldest trace of it comes from 1340.
I agree. It's hard to imagine, say, Qara Khitai retaining their Chinese trappings if they ruled in Persia just as it seems very difficult to actually Sinicise the Ilkhanate given attempts at doing so failed so dramatically. It's just not what the elite of that region they rely on for keeping power want.