AHC: Save the Rust Belt, post 1970

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marathag

Banned
As automation further improves this is only going to increase the numbers of permanently unemployed and under employed. 50 years from now most people are going to be on the dole. I don't know how good the dole will be then. I also suspect any efforts to stop the advance of automation may prove to be worse then the "disease".
And when AI hits the Singularity, may see the awful truth of what need is there for the lower and even middle tier?
I am glad I won't live long enough to see that.
I don't think Humanity will see a post scarcity economy for other than the Elites, and it won't be nice for the remainder
 

Deleted member 145219

I know that there were those who believed that the future of the Steel industry was in new Greenfield facilities. That modernizing or expanding existing plants was not cost effective. Mini mills are a great example of this. Bethlehem Steel's Burns Habor Plant is another facility.

Here is a map of what US Steel planned to build at Conneaut Ohio, east of Cleveland. This plant may have lead to the demise of US Steel's older facilities. It was to be completed in two phase. The first completed in 1987, the second by 1987. It was projected to produce 7.5 Million tons of Steel through two massive blast furnaces, of which the Ore would be delivered to the plant directly from Lake Erie. Principal products of the plant was going to be steel for the automotive industry. Employment was projected to be around 8,000. The plant would certainly be operating today as a Lake Erie version of the Gary Works, though the employment would be lower than 8,000. The reason the Steel industry gained such prominence in Pittsburgh, Youngstown, and other inland locations was due to the local deposits of iron ore and coal. Maybe it would have been better if the Steel industry had been built along the Great Lakes, such as Lake Erie.
US Steel Conneaut.jpg
 
I think it’s worth pointing out that the demise of the US rustbelt and manufacturing is very similar to what happened to pretty much the entire UK manufacturing sector a little earlier. And that similar things happened to the industrial regions of Belgium, France and many other countries before as well. Even the anecdotes of trying to use 70 year old machinery in 100 year old buildings to keep up with modern competitors are exactly the same.

Mostly it is just the timing and the scale which are different, and needless to say every country cries great tears when their old industries go to the wall, just as they have celebrated when those industries were new and obliterated obsolete foreign competitors.
It is the way things go when firms claw their way to the top of the heap and then believe themselves entitled to stay there forever so long as they sign a big check now and then.
 
I think it’s worth pointing out that the demise of the US rustbelt and manufacturing is very similar to what happened to pretty much the entire UK manufacturing sector a little earlier. And that similar things happened to the industrial regions of Belgium, France and many other countries before as well. Even the anecdotes of trying to use 70 year old machinery in 100 year old buildings to keep up with modern competitors are exactly the same.

Mostly it is just the timing and the scale which are different, and needless to say every country cries great tears when their old industries go to the wall, just as they have celebrated when those industries were new and obliterated obsolete foreign competitors.
It is the way things go when firms claw their way to the top of the heap and then believe themselves entitled to stay there forever so long as they sign a big check now and then.
I don't know how much people outside the Netherlands have heard of this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_handicap_of_a_head_start
 
It sort of seems like you'd really need a sort of fascistic dictatorship ala Park Chung Hee to keep the Rust Belt going. Not to say it wouldn't be worth it in the end if you want to keep places like Detroit prestigious and strong, but you'd need a vast amount of state capacity, farsightedness to force through Industrial innovations and stubborn willingness to keep America's economy autarkic/ export disciplined for it to succeed. Otheriwse, it'd be a sisyphean venture
 
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It may have led to Indy being one of the earliest cities to see revivals of middle-class neighborhoods and gentrification of others, along with brownfield redevelopment. Like I wrote it was not the perfect panacea, but was a better cultivation of of the ground for urban revival or economic preservation.
Hold on, gentrification is definitely not a good thing. Hopefully that's not what you're saying.
 
industrial sectors, but also emerging high-tech ones as well. As bad a reputation as places like Detroit, Cincinnati, etc. have, they are famous (infamous?) for their cheap housing costs. Cheap housing, earlier emphasis on attracting tech-related companies, better investment into local education systems, more investment into parks/things to do, and you could get college-aged techies to come in and gentrify some areas
Pittsburgh is also a case of taking advantage of its universities to carve a new path - developing tech sectors - and it did make a comeback to a certain degree - by Rust Belt standard it is certainly a success story.

However, not every Rust Belt city possesses good universities in their backyard.
 
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Theres other actions that while not panceas help immensely. One is rationalization of tax structure and administration through municipal consolidation. That was not uncommon in the early to mid 19th Century. Later it became rare. The largest case I am aware of in the 20th Century was Indianapolis. In the 1960s a group managed to persuade the State legislature to force the Indianapolis suburbs inside Marion county to amalgamate into a single entity with the core city. Two small entities managed to remain nominally independent, isolated inside the larger city boundaries. Elimination of redundant city administrations, police, water, sanitation, ect... made for some cost savings. It made a end run around White Flight to the suburbs, recapturing a fair chunk of middle class voters and tax payers. This kept a larger portion of the middle & wealthy classes as stakeholders in the city and their talents contributing to school boards, and other local of city functions, vs a rapidly shrinking pool. Moving the city boundaries allowed renewed annexation of incorporated development and further growth into high revenue areas. While this did not directly influence business decisions the recaptured revenue from middle class residential districts and high value business properties enable Indianapolis to boost infrastructure spending & renewal projects in the older districts. That helped retain & attract such industry as was still operating, and the pretrial supporting businesses. It may have led to Indy being one of the earliest cities to see revivals of middle-class neighborhoods and gentrification of others, along with brownfield redevelopment. Like I wrote it was not the perfect panacea, but was a better cultivation of of the ground for urban revival or economic preservation.
Pittsburgh IMO qualifies as well.
 

mspence

Banned
Outsourcing didn't help. But it was a combination of things, including an unwillingness to change.
 
Pittsburgh is also a case of taking advantage of its universities to carve a new path - developing tech sectors - and it did make a comeback to a certain degree - by Rust Belt standard it is certainly a success story.

However, not every Rust Belt city possesses good universities in their backyard.

Technically Indianapolis did not have a top tier university within. But there were at least three talent pools within a hours drive.

Where Indy or Indiana lacks strength is in retaining talent. There are some show case high tech operations and a few towns like Lafayette still have a strong 21st Century type industrial base, but in general the state is weak on reasons for the top 10% of the new engineers and others to stay, or return. Or even the top 50% actually. The state usually each year falls into the bottom 10% of veterans benefits/incentives. Retiring Master Sgts & Lt Cols who are the peak of their management & technical abilities at age 40-45 have poor economic incentives to take jobs in Indiana. Texas is near the top in veterans incentives so the bulk of retirees talent and pension money goes to states like Texas. The state legislature routinely rejects bills that might be the fist small step in changing this. I've even seen proposals that cost the taxpayers nothing rejected because of a attitude that "its not the governments responsibility". This attitude extends to many other demographics. What business wants to locate to a county where a drug/HIV epidemic runs rampant & the local politicians reject every proposal to alleviate the problem. Even increasing funds significantly for law enforcement are rejected there.
 
Technically Indianapolis did not have a top tier university within. But there were at least three talent pools within a hours drive.

Where Indy or Indiana lacks strength is in retaining talent. There are some show case high tech operations and a few towns like Lafayette still have a strong 21st Century type industrial base, but in general the state is weak on reasons for the top 10% of the new engineers and others to stay, or return. Or even the top 50% actually. The state usually each year falls into the bottom 10% of veterans benefits/incentives. Retiring Master Sgts & Lt Cols who are the peak of their management & technical abilities at age 40-45 have poor economic incentives to take jobs in Indiana. Texas is near the top in veterans incentives so the bulk of retirees talent and pension money goes to states like Texas. The state legislature routinely rejects bills that might be the fist small step in changing this. I've even seen proposals that cost the taxpayers nothing rejected because of a attitude that "its not the governments responsibility". This attitude extends to many other demographics. What business wants to locate to a county where a drug/HIV epidemic runs rampant & the local politicians reject every proposal to alleviate the problem. Even increasing funds significantly for law enforcement are rejected there.
Yeah... Grad school at Purdue was a ton of fun and a great experience, but my perspective changed when I graduated and move to northern Indiana to work as a R&D engineer. While the cost of living was good, the standard of living was so shitty that anyone who wasn't busy raising kids was itching to get out. You were at least an hour's drive from any good events, food, nightlife, or culture, and unless you liked cornfields or fishing there was pretty much nothing outdoorsy to do. Not to mention the massive dearth of young people or romantic options for those who were single. Made me miss living in Ohio where I grew up. When I decided to move there were at most a half dozen places I could have worked in Indiana, none of which were very appealing and all of which were a few hour's away. Top of my priorities for moving was an area where there was stuff to do and more young people around. The year I left for the coast so did a dozen of my friends, and none of us have looked back since.

Once you become the place people want to get out of it's very hard to reverse it, especially when those in power are ideologically opposed to doing anything that could make things better.
 
It's better than blight.
They're both part of the same racist, elitist policy. Executives deliberately allow apartments to get dilapidated, refusing to do repairs, and then they use that as an excuse to tear them down, forcing the poor people out, and invite rich people to move in. It happens a lot in the city where I live.
 
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