AHC: Make Russian an accepted part of the west.

Or we could get something even worse: Russia goes Protestant... and adopts its own version of American millenarian evangelicalism that is itself the worst stereotypes of this branch of Christianity.

Which would make a lot of people have a brain short circuit for the simple reason that they would basically be watching two countries follow the same religion and ideology...

...but one is perceived as a backward, proto-fascist autocracy pretending to be Christian, while the other another is the summit of Western civilization and the pinnacle of culture, democracy and liberalism XD
 
Or we could get something even worse: Russia goes Protestant... and adopts its own version of American millenarian evangelicalism that is itself the worst stereotypes of this branch of Christianity.

Which would make a lot of people have a brain short circuit for the simple reason that they would basically be watching two countries follow the same religion and ideology...

...but one is perceived as a backward, proto-fascist autocracy pretending to be Christian, while the other another is the summit of Western civilization and the pinnacle of culture, democracy and liberalism XD

What's the most ironic thing in this whole discussion is the fact of how Anglophone societies are the ones that use the word "West" more often than anyone else, while being historically the most anti-Catholic ones to the point of designing great part of their own identities in opposition to the Roman/Latin Church and simultaneously claiming being the successors of Rome.

And obviously, they usually take for themselves to dictate what is and what is not "West" using very objective criteria such as "group of countries post-WWII US governments approve".
 
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Or we could get something even worse: Russia goes Protestant... and adopts its own version of American millenarian evangelicalism that is itself the worst stereotypes of this branch of Christianity.

Which would make a lot of people have a brain short circuit for the simple reason that they would basically be watching two countries follow the same religion and ideology...

...but one is perceived as a backward, proto-fascist autocracy pretending to be Christian, while the other another is the summit of Western civilization and the pinnacle of culture, democracy and liberalism XD
Catholic Russia is indeed very likely to turn Protestant at some point-Rome is far away and Russia's rulers would want to have control over the Church. Russian Henry VIII is more than plausible.
 
Of those countries generally acknowledged as Western: it's a "You're in the club now" kind of attitude. When the cultural and political discourse of Western countries view you as one of their own, and not an "other".

Again, who are those? Ordinary people in New York or Washington? Why not scholars in Madrid, clergy in Rome or media in Buenos Aires?

No problem on using "West" as another word for "NATO" (I myself find it quite odd though, we can always say NATO), but it's obviously not the only meaning the word conveys.

And no, it's not a "club", unless one believes the "West" is inherently superior which is quite a problematic notion on our days.
 
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These reforms will stop Russia from being perceived as a backwards tyranny. Being "Western" is a matter of perception as much as a matter of reality.
As I showed You, much of Europe wasn't western until the late 20th Century following your defenition of what it means to be western. And until WWI, to be considered western You had to be Christian, had white-skin and not be an enemy or a threat to most of European GPs (in the 19th century nor the Irish, Polish nor the Americans were considered western by most of the European elites). The problem is Russia was perceived as a threat by much of Europe, and thus wasn't considered really western, and no reforms could have changed that.
And I doubt that Russia needs to become Catholic or Protestant (do you consider Latin America Western ?) , but removing the structures of power between Church and State will do wonders towards Russia becoming less Orthodox.
Yes I do consider Latin America to be western. You asking the question shows how people tend to consider Christian and cultural heirs of the Roman civilisation countries as not being western because they are not wealthy and are not liberal democracies.
The only way for Russia to become Catholic is to subject the Moscow Patriarchy to the Holy See based on full comunion according to the principles of the Council of Florence - preferably during the reign of Ivan lll, and then Latinise the Church during the following centuries while creating Jesuit schools across Russia.
With that, you'd have a western country, not just a liberal Democracy (After all, many countries we do consider to be western, like Hungary, Ukraine, Serbia, are illiberal democracies and that bothers no one when it is about describing to which civilizational area they belong).
 
Do you consider them to proto-western then, like a training model? Or do you simply think their impact on the present day west is somehow overstated?
I think their impact on the present day west is a little overstated. Don’t get me wrong, Rome and Greece did have a big impact on the modern West, but I do think that there are enough differences between Ancient Rome and Greece and the modern West to justify considering Ancient Rome and Greece as their own thing. Also, Rome and Greece had a big impact on Middle Eastern cultures too.
 
Again, who are those?
For a pre 1900 POD - intellectuals and politicians. The ruling elites basically.
As I showed You, much of Europe wasn't western until the late 20th Century following your defenition of what it means to be western. And until WWI, to be considered western You had to be Christian, had white-skin and not be an enemy or a threat to most of European GPs (in the 19th century nor the Irish, Polish nor the Americans were considered western by most of the European elites). The problem is Russia was perceived as a threat by much of Europe, and thus wasn't considered really western, and no reforms could have changed that.

Yes I do consider Latin America to be western. You asking the question shows how people tend to consider Christian and cultural heirs of the Roman civilisation countries as not being western because they are not wealthy and are not liberal democracies.

With that, you'd have a western country, not just a liberal Democracy (After all, many countries we do consider to be western, like Hungary, Ukraine, Serbia, are illiberal democracies and that bothers no one when it is about describing to which civilizational area they belong).
I had no idea that anybody considered Serbia Western. It's smack dab in the Balkans, and by your own metric - Orthodox. I'd rather consider Croatia as Western (Catholic and former part of the Habsburg empire).

It would probably considered Western only in terms of the culture war stuff, due to growing religious indifference in (geographically) Western Europe - that allows them to be portrayed as preservers of the Christian legacy of Europe, fighting against the "progressive decadence".

And Ukraine, a post-Soviet state, is quite complicated - is it wannabe Western or Western by virtue of being the opponent of the Russist ideology ? Is it Western due to NATO and UE ambitions ?
 
I think their impact on the present day west is a little overstated. Don’t get me wrong, Rome and Greece did have a big impact on the modern West, but I do think that there are enough differences between Ancient Rome and Greece and the modern West to justify considering Ancient Rome and Greece as their own thing. Also, Rome and Greece had a big impact on Middle Eastern cultures too.

Today's China is very different from Ancient China, but it's still China. Ancient Rome and Greece are not West because they miss Christianity, the most important part of Europe's historical identity, the element that glued the whole continent together. However, Rome and Greece are certainly West's direct ancestors.
 
Catholic Russia is indeed very likely to turn Protestant at some point-Rome is far away and Russia's rulers would want to have control over the Church. Russian Henry VIII is more than plausible.


very true, furthermore there would not even be the pressure to form a solid bond with an anti-Protestant or Ottoman function as happened in Poland ( which found itself surrounded by highly hostile neighbors and with the only remaining ally the Catholic Habsburgs ) which would allowed us to earn an annual subsidy from Rome of 15 thousand ducats ( as a minimum amount, but which was only provided during periods of conflict ) to be allocated to military campaigns against heretics or infidels
 
I had no idea that anybody considered Serbia Western. It's smack dab in the Balkans, and by your own metric - Orthodox. I'd rather consider Croatia as Western (Catholic and former part of the Habsburg empire).
I don't consider Serbia to be western but some (mostly American Conservatives) do think it is part of the West. I agree for Croatia.
And Ukraine, a post-Soviet state, is quite complicated - is it wannabe Western or Western by virtue of being the opponent of the Russist ideology ? Is it Western due to NATO and UE ambitions ?
What on earth is the 'Russist ideology'? I'm genuinely curious about this expression because I never Heard about it. IMO, it is ridiculous to call a country western because it's part of NATO or EU (hell, during the 2000's it was a widespread idea in most of EU elites that Turkey should join the union, and Turkey is by no mean a western nation). As for NATO, it would mean that by being a de facto vassal/Ally state Of the US you would become western. From this point of view Japan, South Korea and Taiwan are western countries.
 
I mean we can also just have Russia take over and become the premier power. If you are the top dog you can call yourself whatever you want and everyone will agree with you.
 
These reforms would liberalize Russia, not westernize it. If you think that limiting the sovereign's authority, the Church's power and giving up the idea of national uniformity are the main characteristics of Western countries, then Spain was not part of the West until the 1980's, nor Germany up until 1945 and France is still not a western country because giving everyone the same cultural and national identity (a thing called assimiliation) is still the current politic. However, following your Logic, the medieval Islamic Kingdom of Al-Andalus (modern day Spain) was western (a very decentralized administration with a sovereign with limited power and a strong religious and cultural tolerance even regarding the Jews).
If You want to westernize a country, you'll have to make it adopt Catholicism or Protestantism (or at least their main cultural features) and make it follow the legal principles inherited by the Roman Empire and make it integrate philisophical principles coming from Ancient Greece, not transform it into a liberal, multicultural Democracy.
Spain was western because aside from following legal codes directly descended from Roman jurisprudence, as is the case with the majority of continental states with a mixture between Napoleonic (which itself is another direct descendant of the Roman model) and Germanic law, while Russia ironically only became more European in its after the Revolution displaced tsarism's archaic micture of Roman, canon and local feudal laws with a civil code based on the precedents of Europe. France meanwhile is the archetypical western country outside of the Anglosphere, having served for centuries as the center of artistic and intellectual currents (honestly, the hub of salons would pushed for redical social change with or without the the factors that led to the French revolution), and since the time of Napoleon, it and Germany have been the models for western based civil codes with imitators as far out as South America (Yes, Chile borrowed more from Prussia than just its military discipline.) and post 19th century eastern Asia.

The existence of Al-Andalus, as well as the general concept of Islamic civilization, demonstrates that just because particular culture had some of its ideas originate in the west, from Islam's basis in Abrahamism to the efforts of the Golden Age to preserve and improve upon ancient Greek scholarship, doesn't automatically mean it will be accepted on equal footing with the nations and political alliances who conventionally get to set the limits of what is western. In premodern times, the Islamic world was rejected on the fact that it wasn't a fusion of Christian and Greco-Roman; more recently the lack of an 18th century style Enlightenment as westerners understand it has been used as shorthand to justify othering the near east and imperialize both it and other cultures which don't meet Euro-American standards of developed. Al-Andalus then is simply a way to show that the "liberal tolerance" the west has historically prided itself on is neither unique to the present day developed world nor uniquely rooted in our values.

As for Russia, the reason I conflate liberalization with westernization is becuase any attempt to do so throughout the Empire and beyond would inevitably be tangled with questions over Russian identity as well as how much to take from the conventional west while maintaining the status of Russia as a distinct political force. Western culture does not automatically lead to a stable state or to political liberty; otherwise we would have to concede that pre-1945 Germany, whether as the literal and political battleground for rival European powers or as a model for law, military and industry during the height of Prussia, was simply not western. We'd also have to assume the same for pre-unification Naples and Sicily, given their less cultural influence when compared to the north and center of Italy as well as their shared history of being passed around by Catholic dynasties like a colony in the Americas. A fully "western" Russia would essentially be one that has set aside Slavophilia and Russian nihilism as serious political contenders in favor of the currents of electoral politics that dominate Euro-America. If Russian simply wanted to "westernize" like Japan or Thailand, the result would be an attempt to adopt western economics and styles of government while retaining its Orthodox character, much like what the Federaion has tried to do today or what happened in the Empire of Japan.
 
Spain was western because aside from following legal codes directly descended from Roman jurisprudence, as is the case with the majority of continental states with a mixture between Napoleonic (which itself is another direct descendant of the Roman model) and Germanic law, while Russia ironically only became more European in its after the Revolution displaced tsarism's archaic micture of Roman, canon and local feudal laws with a civil code based on the precedents of Europe. France meanwhile is the archetypical western country outside of the Anglosphere, having served for centuries as the center of artistic and intellectual currents (honestly, the hub of salons would pushed for redical social change with or without the the factors that led to the French revolution), and since the time of Napoleon, it and Germany have been the models for western based civil codes with imitators as far out as South America (Yes, Chile borrowed more from Prussia than just its military discipline.) and post 19th century eastern Asia.

The existence of Al-Andalus, as well as the general concept of Islamic civilization, demonstrates that just because particular culture had some of its ideas originate in the west, from Islam's basis in Abrahamism to the efforts of the Golden Age to preserve and improve upon ancient Greek scholarship, doesn't automatically mean it will be accepted on equal footing with the nations and political alliances who conventionally get to set the limits of what is western. In premodern times, the Islamic world was rejected on the fact that it wasn't a fusion of Christian and Greco-Roman; more recently the lack of an 18th century style Enlightenment as westerners understand it has been used as shorthand to justify othering the near east and imperialize both it and other cultures which don't meet Euro-American standards of developed. Al-Andalus then is simply a way to show that the "liberal tolerance" the west has historically prided itself on is neither unique to the present day developed world nor uniquely rooted in our values.

As for Russia, the reason I conflate liberalization with westernization is becuase any attempt to do so throughout the Empire and beyond would inevitably be tangled with questions over Russian identity as well as how much to take from the conventional west while maintaining the status of Russia as a distinct political force. Western culture does not automatically lead to a stable state or to political liberty; otherwise we would have to concede that pre-1945 Germany, whether as the literal and political battleground for rival European powers or as a model for law, military and industry during the height of Prussia, was simply not western. We'd also have to assume the same for pre-unification Naples and Sicily, given their less cultural influence when compared to the north and center of Italy as well as their shared history of being passed around by Catholic dynasties like a colony in the Americas. A fully "western" Russia would essentially be one that has set aside Slavophilia and Russian nihilism as serious political contenders in favor of the currents of electoral politics that dominate Euro-America. If Russian simply wanted to "westernize" like Japan or Thailand, the result would be an attempt to adopt western economics and styles of government while retaining its Orthodox character, much like what the Federaion has tried to do today or what happened in the Empire of Japan.
I couldn't agree more. I have the impression You just read my mind!
 
Simple. Forget all that "West" nonsense and let Russia be its own country. Not embracing American definitions of "the West" and re-acknowledging the fact that Europe exists and Russia is part of it.

Expanding: Personally this has reminded me of the similar threads about how Japan is a strange and totally foreign entity to the West towards which equally similar ideas are poured.

I would say that a similar response is most appropriate in this case, which would basically be that Russia would need to take a break from Western ideas.

In the case of Japan what we see is that they try to be Western, while Russia is already in the phase of "Oh what the hell, trying to be Western is a waste of time. Those idiots are never going to accept us no matter what we do."
And really that seems to be the most effective strategy; Japan, despite its two transformations into a power capable of outmatching the powers after which it learned, is still not western due to how tightly it clings to its historical traditions. As a result, the common vie of Japan in Europe and America is that of a system parallel to that of our own, with the same outwards mechnanics but with a completely different psyche underneath. As a result Japan is basically done learning from the west and now is content to be the world supplier of futuristic technology.
 
And really that seems to be the most effective strategy; Japan, despite its two transformations into a power capable of outmatching the powers after which it learned, is still not western due to how tightly it clings to its historical traditions. As a result, the common vie of Japan in Europe and America is that of a system parallel to that of our own, with the same outwards mechnanics but with a completely different psyche underneath. As a result Japan is basically done learning from the west and now is content to be the world supplier of futuristic technology.
I've always got the impression that if the Russian Empire had followed a similar path to Japan (maybe Alexander II not assassinated as a PoD, even if that PoD could have been too little too late), then Russia could have become the great world superpower of our time until even nowadays.
 
Russia is culturally European. IMO, it’s not about culture but about the geopolitics that governed Europe. To be part of the community of European states means being a part of the balance of power. But Russia struggles to be part of that due to its location. They are on the eastern end of Europe & is just massive. So they often are seen as uncheckable by other powers. Each time Russophobia surged coincided with them leaping out of the balance such as in the Crimean War and the aftermath of WW2. And in the 21st century, although dissolved, its size still makes it just big enough to be an independent power and not rely upon the interdependent system of Europe built after WW2, thus being again ‘other’.
 
Russia is culturally European. IMO, it’s not about culture but about the geopolitics that governed Europe. To be part of the community of European states means being a part of the balance of power. But Russia struggles to be part of that due to its location. They are on the eastern end of Europe & is just massive. So they often are seen as uncheckable by other powers. Each time Russophobia surged coincided with them leaping out of the balance such as in the Crimean War and the aftermath of WW2. And in the 21st century, although dissolved, its size still makes it just big enough to be an independent power and not rely upon the interdependent system of Europe built after WW2, thus being again ‘other’.
So basically, whether Russia is too powerful to be considered at least in part western, whether they are seen as too weak and backwards to be considered part of the West.
 
Ruscism is a portmanteau of Russian and fascism - basically what some Ukrainians have come to call Putin's ideological justification for the war in Ukraine.
Ok, but what is facsism according to you? IMO, Putin's regime has actually little to do with fascism but has many more features belonging to classical south-american dictatorships of the 1960-1970's (nationalism, conservative ideology, focus on Christian values, militarism and a bit of socialism/social welfare to give the impression the regime is benevolent and caring). Also, the 21st century Russia is way more 'multicultural' than often stated, Putin and co being forced to recognize the muslim/siberian native minorities to keep their country and regime United.
 
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