8mm to the Left: If Hitler Died in 1923

[wietze]

That's how I see it as well, there wasn't a single power entering WWI (except maybe Belgium) who didn't have their own selfish reasons for wanting war.

ehh did you see the ridiculous demands of belgium post ww1 towards the Netherlands (pretty much wanting to annex (NEUTRAL) Netherlands upwards to the rhine.
belgium was as much contaminated with the war mood as the rest they just paid a much higher price

 

[KaiserKatze]

ehh did you see the ridiculous demands of belgium post ww1 towards the Netherlands (pretty much wanting to annex (NEUTRAL) Netherlands upwards to the rhine.
belgium was as much contaminated with the war mood as the rest they just paid a much higher price

They did seek that territory in the aftermath but going into the war they didn't seem to have any designs on territory. At most they seemed to be more interested in French Flanders and Luxembourg, neither of which would be gained by joining the Entente

 

[gradje]

I'm loving all the Spanish Civil War discussion! I am excited to reach that point and, while I already have it sketched out, I am absolutely loving the theorising. Though for some reason no one has predicted the Anarchists winning and creating a world Anarchist state?

I prefer to keep HoI4 (and it's consequences have been a disaster for alternate history) out of this

ehh did you see the ridiculous demands of belgium post ww1 towards the Netherlands (pretty much wanting to annex (NEUTRAL) Netherlands upwards to the rhine.
belgium was as much contaminated with the war mood as the rest they just paid a much higher price

Only after the Netherlands let German troops march back to Germany through the country but not before disarming all those soldiers. Funny side effect is that the Netherlands had some quite big militias but they were all moderate and pro-democracy simply because of the rediculous availability of firearms. But the demands can also be seen as resentment over the fact that we didn't go to war over the defence of Belgian neutrality unlike Britain. And unlike any gains against Germany, Belgium has a strategic interest in gettin the coal mines of Southern Limburg and securing at least half of the access to Antwerp with Zeeuws Vlaanderen

 

[KaiserKatze]

I prefer to keep HoI4 (and it's consequences have been a disaster for alternate history) out of this

Mehehe you got me there

 

[Mildtryth]

I'm loving all the Spanish Civil War discussion! I am excited to reach that point and, while I already have it sketched out, I am absolutely loving the theorising. Though for some reason no one has predicted the Anarchists winning and creating a world Anarchist state?

They'd have a hard enough time surviving even if they won, let alone exporting the revolution.

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

I will say it would be interesting seeing a victorious communist Spain that is allied with the USSR and is like the only true red country in the whole of Western Europe but don't much because they're busy rebuilding the country post civil war. Spanish Morocco suddenly becomes clogged with Spaniards fleeing the inevitable purges and the general thing of not wanting to live under a red regime.

 

[kham_coc]

Which has me thinking. There are scholars who talk of a European Civil War spanning 1914-1945. Now, 1945 wouldn't be the definitive end-date in this case, but how likely is it that this narrative becomes the dominant one, without ofcourse spoilering too much.

Depends entirely on the nature of the intervening years, but if you just take OTL minus ww2, then that definitively would be the narrative, though that's implausible.

 

[KaiserKatze]

I will say it would be interesting seeing a victorious communist Spain that is allied with the USSR and is like the only true red country in the whole of Western Europe but don't much because they're busy rebuilding the country post civil war. Spanish Morocco suddenly becomes clogged with Spaniards fleeing the inevitable purges and the general thing of not wanting to live under a red regime.

Well whether or not the Spanish Republic would turn truly Communist is up for debate, too. Yes some of their leaders during the war were Communists and there was a definite popular appeal, but we may have just seen a coalition government like the Popular Front in France under Leon Blum. It would really come down to when the war ended

 

[Whiteshore]

I forgot the Code came around at about this time. It could make a very interesting contrast where Hollywood becomes known for its sanitised stuff and Germany becomes the more gritty film-maker.

We could have quite a few note that the more liberal film atmosphere in Germany than in the US is under an old Prussian conservative ITTL, which could be one of the great cultural ironies of this TL.

 

[KaiserKatze]

We could have quite a few note that the more liberal film atmosphere in Germany than in the US is under an old Prussian conservative ITTL, which could be one of the great cultural ironies of this TL.

Oh definitely a good one. One question, as my knowledge of cinematic history is very specific: Wasn't the lack of major competition following WW2, plus the immigration of major talent from Europe, one of the major reasons for Hollywood's incredible success? How would it be affected if Europe keeps producing potential competitors? Outside of Germany and the US, what were the biggest threats?

 

[JamesHunter]

Oh definitely a good one. One question, as my knowledge of cinematic history is very specific: Wasn't the lack of major competition following WW2, plus the immigration of major talent from Europe, one of the major reasons for Hollywood's incredible success? How would it be affected if Europe keeps producing potential competitors? Outside of Germany and the US, what were the biggest threats?

Somewhat yeah. I mean the French film industry needed years to recover, Germany was out of the game until the 60's and while Italy produced some very well received stuff (Bicycle thieves for instance) it had low circulation even though (like Weimer cinema) it had huge influence later on. Obviously Japan got going again fairly quickly but up until the 1980's the Americans were able to neuter alot of that by releasing crappy dubbed versions.

Only the British cinema industry really came out of the war strong and up until Hammer and Bond that was mostly still confined to home and Empire/Commonwealth audiences.

In contrast just before and during the war Disney literally nearly went to the wall when the European box office went away.

 

[Migrant_Coconut]

Time for Thuringia Schultz und die Bundeslade?

 

[Whiteshore]

Interestingly, the OG Spinosaurus remains would probably still be a thing here, which could be interesting from a paleontological perspective.

 

[Migrant_Coconut]

"Herr Professor, it turns out the beast might actually have flown-"

"Mein Gott in Himmel, NO MORE REDESIGNS."

 

[Ventriloquist]

I've already planned for them to produce a movie in the 1940's or 50's called  Weltkrieg which will be an extremely expensive and detailed depiction of the Great War from the perspective of the common soldier, with emphasis on depicting both sides as being equally guilty, and it will shift the public narrative of the Great War away from German guilt and towards it being a collective tragedy which becomes the de facto view after that.

Did Germany ban the American adaptation of All Quiet in the Western Front ITTL? I imagine that would be a massive influence on a German film about WWI like this.

 

[KaiserKatze]

Did Germany ban the American adaptation of All Quiet in the Western Front ITTL? I imagine that would be a massive influence on a German film about WWI like this.

I'm actually not sure. I've never seen the original and I don't know if contemporary viewers would consider it to be biased or not.

My thought was that it takes inspiration from several sources, including All Quiet on the Western Front, but trying to build a more comprehensive picture showing the grand motivations from each side which slowly boil away until a shared exhaustion and hatred which leads or nearly leads to the collapse of their respective governments. It will be somewhat contentious when it comes out in Germany because it will be quite critical of the German Empire and Wilhelm II, and somewhat positive about the Republic, which will ruffle some feathers within groups who see the Republic as an evil corrupt regime which rightfully fell.

 

[Ventriloquist]

I'm actually not sure. I've never seen the original and I don't know if contemporary viewers would consider it to be biased or not.

Sure, I'm just asking because afaik it was banned in 1930 IOTL because of heavy pressure from the Nazis. I might as well quote Wikipedia here:

Due to its anti-war and perceived anti-German messages, Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party opposed the film. During and after its German premiere in Berlin on December 4, 1930, Nazi brownshirts under the command of Joseph Goebbels disrupted the viewings by setting off stink bombs, throwing sneezing powder in the air and releasing white mice in the theaters, eventually escalating to attacking audience members perceived to be Jewish and forcing projectors to shut down. They repeatedly yelled out "Judenfilm!" ("Jewish film!") while doing this.

Goebbels wrote about one such disruption in his personal diary:

Within ten minutes, the cinema resembles a madhouse. The police are powerless. The embittered crowd takes out its anger on the Jews. The first breakthrough in the West. 'Jews out!' 'Hitler is standing at the gates!' The police sympathize with us. The Jews are small and ugly. The box office outside is under siege. Windowpanes are broken. Thousands of people enjoy the spectacle. The screening is abandoned, as is the next one. We have won. The newspapers are full of our protest. But not even the Berliner Tageblatt dares to call us names. The nation is on our side. In short: victory!

The Nazi campaign was successful and German authorities outlawed the film on December 11, 1930. A heavily cut version was briefly allowed in 1931, before the Nazis came to power in 1933 and the film was outlawed again. The film was finally re-released in Germany on April 25, 1952, in the Capitol Theatre in West Berlin.

Now obviously, even though the Nazis are a lot weaker ITTL, I imagine they'll still try this shit as IOTL. Whether the authorities will cave to their pressure is another question entirely.

 

[JamesHunter]

Sure, I'm just asking because afaik it was banned in 1930 IOTL because of heavy pressure from the Nazis. I might as well quote Wikipedia here:



Now obviously, even though the Nazis are a lot weaker ITTL, I imagine they'll still try this shit as IOTL. Whether the authorities will cave to their pressure is another question entirely.

Probably not as the Nazis were already nobodies rather than the coming power by 1930. Might annoy the army enough to still push for a ban though.

 

[Whiteshore]

Probably not as the Nazis were already nobodies rather than the coming power by 1930. Might annoy the army enough to still push for a ban though.

Especially as the government ITTL is still run by old-school Prussian conservatives.

 

[wietze]

Sure, I'm just asking because afaik it was banned in 1930 IOTL because of heavy pressure from the Nazis. I might as well quote Wikipedia here:



Now obviously, even though the Nazis are a lot weaker ITTL, I imagine they'll still try this shit as IOTL. Whether the authorities will cave to their pressure is another question entirely.

Probably not as the Nazis were already nobodies rather than the coming power by 1930. Might annoy the army enough to still push for a ban though.

actually the opposite, giving in to a bunch of violent nobodies might be seen as a sign of weakness