Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
Hitler did invade the Soviet Union while being at war with the UK so...
A united Iraq-Jordan (either called something like the United Arab Republic or else just Iraq) will definitely have designs on both Syria (all of it, including whatever small states break free) and Palestine. In turn this probably pushes Syria and Egypt closer like IOTL and the minor statelets like Assyria and maybe a Druze state into Western or Soviet arms.
Agreed but i doubt it would be a republic since he's uniting two monarchies
Lol fair, United Arab Kingdom works just as well (and probably pisses off the Saudis…)
On another note, forgot to mention that it’s good to see Persia and Britain come to an agreement on oil. It’s funny how long term beneficial solutions to OTL issues are found ITTL by tweaking the Brits’ noses a bit
I was wondering what the Assyrians were up to! Here's hoping some luck goes their way, they'll need it. I like the flag too, different than some of the other's I've seen. Biggest question now is how much they'll manage to take from the Axis before the British lines catch up and what the Kurds are likely to do at the same time. Iraq uniting with Jordan might sooth some tempers about Assyria and the Kurds breaking off to whatever degree... Developments for Iraq proper are interesting too, maybe we'll see better odds for a united Arab state in the future? That would have some implications for the Mid-East. Interesting implications for the long-term stability of the region anyway. Can't decide if it has the potential to be more or less stable than otl...
Also, Iran getting dragged into the war proper is neat. The rather low number of nations that managed neutrality and 'neutrality' iotl gets increasingly smaller ittl. I wonder if that will be better or worse for their sovereignty compared to how they got treated in otl, the oil deal resolution is encouraging anyway. Might not be a Tehran conference here either with them as a target...
Also, Iran getting dragged into the war proper is neat. The rather low number of nations that managed neutrality and 'neutrality' iotl gets increasingly smaller ittl. I wonder if that will be better or worse for their sovereignty compared to how they got treated in otl, the oil deal resolution is encouraging anyway. Might not be a Tehran conference here either with them as a target...
Attacking Iran when you’re already on the back foot might be one of the dumbest decisions ever made. I can totally see it happening but it’s still incredibly dumb.
Has this deal happened as IOTL? Could the British (or the Americans) loan 3 of those destroyes to the Hellenic Navy to allow a quicker replacement of losses?
As for the Assyrians, I realy hope they achieve at least a wide autonomy . I regard independence to be non-feasible in the long term.
Finally, voted for this wonderful TL!
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I think the Greeks are overworrying over the Italian navy as none of the axis powers will have enough naval capacity to actually threaten the shipments to Smyrna and Greece's control of the Aegean sea.
I find it funny that France is still influencing stuff in the middle East when they're in WWII since they're supposed to be fighting in WWII. Assyria getting a state is good as they can be a buffer state in the middle East. I think ittl different peoples in the middle East would have nations and the Turks and Arabs will be the big losers after WWII.
I find it funny that France is still influencing stuff in the middle East when they're in WWII since they're supposed to be fighting in WWII. Assyria getting a state is good as they can be a buffer state in the middle East. I think ittl different peoples in the middle East would have nations and the Turks and Arabs will be the big losers after WWII.
That cracked me up!
Slim becoming early on an Army Commander is definitely good news for the Commonwealth. Even if is just a corps now, it soon will become the 9th or 10th Army. Send the man some more Gurkha battalions. The 1942 campaign will be fought on mountains...
It does make certain sense from the german POV. Iran after all doesn't have an army of any importance. The Iranians would need a couple of years worth of the British supplying them with modern gear and retrain them. But the Soviet Union will collapse in the next few months, so there are no worries over it. Plenty of assets will be freed by spring.
And good luck sustaining a bombing campaign from Mosul against Abadan. Good for propaganda purposes but I suspect it will be a pinprick.
Just to be clear for anyone who isn't familiar with IMPORTANT INFRASTRUCTURE OF WW2 the Abadan refinery is capable of providing upwards of 5 million tonne's of oil; or 550,000,000 barrels; per year to Allies at this time and was the worlds largest refinery complex if I recall correctly.
Even assuming they are taking off from Kirkuk; which would put those bomber only a day or two march off the front lines; that is 1400km round trip even if they do zero attempt at evasion. Toss in even small course corrections and evasion and you'll quickly end up at the upper limit of HE111 (1950km) and the BF110 (2100km). Assuming it's Mosul and you're already at 1700km before anything other than a ram rod straight line. I would say Mosul is more likely at least for the bombers; since it is much easier to supply them with munitions at Mosul rather than Kirkuk; with maybe the fighters forward deployed at Kirkuk
Given the extreme shoestring logistical tail that the Axis is working on here this is an impressive misuse of resources unless they are genuinely hoping for a 1 shot knock out of the refinery and pipeline complex. I suppose the question I would ask is how many bomber's and fighters are in this sortie and how many trains worth of supplies have been used to equip this single mission. If it is maybe a squadron or two of bombers with a wing of fighters maybe the propaganda aspect is worth it in Germany's eyes. If it's like 200 bombers with another 50 fighters for escort than I would ask where in the hell all that firepower was while the British were making their way up Iraq. Either way barring a golden bb this is a massive waste of effort on the German side.
Of course with the general tenor of the timeline so far being the Axis just slightly worse off maybe a golden BB helps tip those scales back just a tiny bit. You have to figure that any short term shortfall in bunker oil by Britain would most likely mean a cut to the PQ convoys supplying the USSR before any Commonwealth forces and a USSR that is missing even small amounts of equipment is one that maybe advances Westward just a bit slower than historically allowing Greece just a little bit more time to establish facts on the ground. Who knows though I eagerly await the next updates!!!
In the long run I’m deeply curious what post-war relations between Greece and the USSR will look like. I know part of that depends on the borders, but there’s inevitably going to be some conflict over the straits at least given that we can pretty confidently say that Greece will hold them after the war. Given that Greece is a bit closer to the West than Turkey was IOTL I think the Soviets will push harder against them.
If Royalist/non-Communist Yugoslavia survives the war Russian Balkan ambitions are toast. Yugoslavia and Greece will stay good friends in the face of (most likely) Communist Bulgaria/Romania, and they’re the more powerful side of the two.
In that scenario, I suspect Russia will be pushing hard for a Communist Turkey, and if that is accomplished then they’ll be using them for their claims on Istanbul/the straits as Tito used Macedonia to claim Thessaloniki IOTL. As a defeated enemy Turkey is fair game for a regime change and I doubt Britain, France, or Greece will have the resources or energy to try and stop the Soviets while they’re preoccupied elsewhere. That sets up a brand new front for the Cold War in and around Constantinople…
If Royalist/non-Communist Yugoslavia survives the war Russian Balkan ambitions are toast. Yugoslavia and Greece will stay good friends in the face of (most likely) Communist Bulgaria/Romania, and they’re the more powerful side of the two.
In that scenario, I suspect Russia will be pushing hard for a Communist Turkey, and if that is accomplished then they’ll be using them for their claims on Istanbul/the straits as Tito used Macedonia to claim Thessaloniki IOTL. As a defeated enemy Turkey is fair game for a regime change and I doubt Britain, France, or Greece will have the resources or energy to try and stop the Soviets while they’re preoccupied elsewhere. That sets up a brand new front for the Cold War in and around Constantinople…
Honestly I expect Constantinople to be just as active as OTL Berlin. Spies everywhere.
The German attack might be quite helpful to the current Iranian regime. Being an ally rather than just a friendly neutral would potentially allow more direct aid and there is now more justification and probably internal support to crack down on the pro-German opposition.
I think that it's very likely that after WWII the Turks will work with the Arabs to fight Greece and Israel respectively.
It doesn’t matter what the Turks want if the Russian-installed Communist government wants tensions with Greece. If things go as OTL Russia will initially be neutral to friendly with Israel, so fighting them will be off the table. I would expect the Turkish Communist régime to be of the Hungarian rather than Yugoslavian kind, so independent foreign policy will be out of the picture.
I'm seeing a lot of references to a Greece-Israel alliance. The problem is, Greece historically had very good relations with the Arab countries, and therefore, IOTL until the 1990s almost no relations with Israel. It is only in the past decade or so that relations have blossomed, chiefly due to the shared opposition to Erdogan's Turkey. There were many reasons for this approach by Greece, including the presence of the three eastern Greek Orthodox patriarchates in Arab countries, the large Greek community in Egypt, trade and oil. I don't see how this changes much in TTL's world. A stronger and more confident Greece will likely have a more multi-faceted foreign policy which will likely not ignore Israel as OTL, but a common Greek-Israel front is not a given. Especially with Egypt, Greek governments will be very wary of antagonizing it. If the Arab world presents a common anti-Israel front, then Greece will observe neutrality and likely keep the Israelis at arm's length, as OTL. Unofficial relations may be better than OTL, because Greece won't need Arab support, e.g. in the Cyprus question, but in any case Greece will still be busy enough with Turkish revanchism to avoid being drawn into other states' quarrels.
If it's a one shot attack could be a waste of resources if something like bombers not finding the objective due to clouds or they are discovered, attacked and forced to disperse. That also happens quite often and isn't even necessary to be attacked by a big force.
If communist Turkey has retained attalia i expect that the russians you build a massive naval base there to project power in the east med
It could easily be effected by Turkish ravanchism Affects it if the Turkish nationalists side with the Arabs. Or it becomes a Soviet satelite . which could cause a change of Greek attitudes toward pro Soviet regimes in the region