Better off might be left to opinion. I just feel that an entire generation if you will of Germans who might have embraced Frederick III's polices were passed by, and who knows, if a future William II might mature into a less reactionary and egotistical monarch if he had to wait longer to inherit the Imperial throne.
WI: Wilhelm I of Prussia Killed At Louveciennes?
- Thread starter Kellan Sullivan
- Start date
kham_coc
Banned
He wouldn't though, his father is liable to die at the same time. Unless you mean he is crown Prince for a longer time?
Yes that is what I meant. That he would be Crown Prince for a longer time.
Why would there not be a Sedan? Would the change of monarch alter the military course of the war i any major way - save perhaps cancelling the bombardment of Paris?
VVD0D95
Banned
Well, surely the death of Wilhelm would prompt the Germans to need to regroup and consider where to go from there? After all, the main man dying in the middle of a campaign can effect morale etc.
Mark1878
Donor
No. By this time Kings etc did not directly command troops.
During this war the General Staff and Ministers (e.g Bismark) will just carry on especially as things are progressing well.
As for morale it will be let the Army prevail to show respect for the Kaiser and his aims.
I suspect differences only start with how to end the war.
i doubt it would make morale collapse, it might make the troops more bent for revenge though, so the french might get even more of a beating
Stop? i even doubt that, war has inertia of its own.
things that were planned, will continue. i think Wilhelm dying in France might just mean they will take even more territory from france (maybe some colonies?)
I think the problem here is the severe misunderstandings many people have regarding "Our Fritz". The man was utterly opposed to a parliamentary system. He was an outspoken critic of the electoral vote for the Reichstag and vastly preferred a bicameral system like in Prussia. He had a massive dynastic arrogance and disparaged the other German Monarchs often as Napoleonic Kings. His relationship with the Bavarian King was as close to hatred as you can come. And this was typical for most of them, because in his own words he would make them kneel before him. A tendency that was known well enough among all of them.
Vanity was one of his great characteristics. There are multiple accounts of him being extremely displeased when people did not recognize him on parades or military maneuvers. He often rode from one end to another, so he would be seen by all.
Some examples of quotes about him by contemporaries or instances indicating such behavior:
He arranged himself with Bismarck and while there was a something like a cycle between his like and dislike of him, he still accepted his skill and saw a clear need of him. Considering their best period was the time at the start of the Empire, it is doubtful that it would be different from OTL between them. The deciding changing point in their relationship was the War of 1866, it removed the initial hostility between them that came from Bismarck's solution to the constitutional crisis and his actions thereafter, the fate of Schleswig-Holstein was an unexpected bone of contention. But from this moment on Fritz realized how his own opinion and goals aligned with Bismarck on some points, his skill and how he had become a part of Germany. It is a less well-known fact that the Crown Prince interceded on Bismarck's behalf to ensure a modest settlement against Austria even though his father and his father's military advisors wanted to enact a more punishing one.
What would be different? A Kulturkampf that would not be stopped or far harsher and escalated from the OTL events. Frederick Wilhelm was severely disappointed when the Kulturkampf was called off and did not want Bismarck to relent till they are destroyed. Additionally, he was opposed towards the concession made to the Southern States and pushed for a more centralized constitution. Furthermore, he was likely the biggest dynastic snob of the era. So much that close friends assumed he would never appoint a Müller, Schulze or Friedberg instead of a prince.
If anyone believes he would be inclined towards a less harsh or neutral stance towards the social democrats, let me disabuse you of the notion. His comments regarding them were in no manner below the more vile comments of his son.
The Battenberg marriage may have gone through, even though he himself was also against it. He was more interested in colonies than Bismarck, so there is the possibility for more territorial gains before 1888. His massive Anglophilia is well-known, but Britain was in the period of splendid isolation, therefore nothing would have been achieved in this direction. Maybe better relations with the Gladstone premierships, but I can't see any great change resulting from these instances. A big difference could be the change in relation to Russia from friendly under Wilhelm I. to worsen under Fritz, to then be restored under Wilhelm II.
Ironically, going by his writings in 1885 he had similar ideas to his son regarding a "personal rule". With turning the chancellor into a mere servant and with the support of the armed forces and that of the nation as a whole, the monarch would be recognized as the only original source of political power and would personally conduct the affairs of the Reich.
Another option would be a short intermission between two periods of Chancellorship for Bismarck. When the left liberals had a massive victory, they could have supplanted Bismarck for one election period, even though they would likely be unable to achieve much against all other groups in the parliament and the Kaiser. He never would have agreed to make the army a parliamentary force nor weaken monarchical powers. So, I see this more like a short happy marriage that would have quickly turned sour.
Overall, the 99-days Kaiser has been made into this dream like figure that would have changed the course of Germany, but under closer scrutiny it is obvious how wrong such an assessment is. And this does not even touch the influence from the most unpopular Queen/Crown Princess/Empress in Prussian/German history.
Vanity was one of his great characteristics. There are multiple accounts of him being extremely displeased when people did not recognize him on parades or military maneuvers. He often rode from one end to another, so he would be seen by all.
Some examples of quotes about him by contemporaries or instances indicating such behavior:
He arranged himself with Bismarck and while there was a something like a cycle between his like and dislike of him, he still accepted his skill and saw a clear need of him. Considering their best period was the time at the start of the Empire, it is doubtful that it would be different from OTL between them. The deciding changing point in their relationship was the War of 1866, it removed the initial hostility between them that came from Bismarck's solution to the constitutional crisis and his actions thereafter, the fate of Schleswig-Holstein was an unexpected bone of contention. But from this moment on Fritz realized how his own opinion and goals aligned with Bismarck on some points, his skill and how he had become a part of Germany. It is a less well-known fact that the Crown Prince interceded on Bismarck's behalf to ensure a modest settlement against Austria even though his father and his father's military advisors wanted to enact a more punishing one.
What would be different? A Kulturkampf that would not be stopped or far harsher and escalated from the OTL events. Frederick Wilhelm was severely disappointed when the Kulturkampf was called off and did not want Bismarck to relent till they are destroyed. Additionally, he was opposed towards the concession made to the Southern States and pushed for a more centralized constitution. Furthermore, he was likely the biggest dynastic snob of the era. So much that close friends assumed he would never appoint a Müller, Schulze or Friedberg instead of a prince.
If anyone believes he would be inclined towards a less harsh or neutral stance towards the social democrats, let me disabuse you of the notion. His comments regarding them were in no manner below the more vile comments of his son.
The Battenberg marriage may have gone through, even though he himself was also against it. He was more interested in colonies than Bismarck, so there is the possibility for more territorial gains before 1888. His massive Anglophilia is well-known, but Britain was in the period of splendid isolation, therefore nothing would have been achieved in this direction. Maybe better relations with the Gladstone premierships, but I can't see any great change resulting from these instances. A big difference could be the change in relation to Russia from friendly under Wilhelm I. to worsen under Fritz, to then be restored under Wilhelm II.
Ironically, going by his writings in 1885 he had similar ideas to his son regarding a "personal rule". With turning the chancellor into a mere servant and with the support of the armed forces and that of the nation as a whole, the monarch would be recognized as the only original source of political power and would personally conduct the affairs of the Reich.
Another option would be a short intermission between two periods of Chancellorship for Bismarck. When the left liberals had a massive victory, they could have supplanted Bismarck for one election period, even though they would likely be unable to achieve much against all other groups in the parliament and the Kaiser. He never would have agreed to make the army a parliamentary force nor weaken monarchical powers. So, I see this more like a short happy marriage that would have quickly turned sour.
Overall, the 99-days Kaiser has been made into this dream like figure that would have changed the course of Germany, but under closer scrutiny it is obvious how wrong such an assessment is. And this does not even touch the influence from the most unpopular Queen/Crown Princess/Empress in Prussian/German history.
Ironically in otl Wilhelm I’s reign saw the referendum for German unification barely pass by two votes in the Bavarian Parliament. FIII’s own idiocy and hubris would almost certainly piss off the Southern German states even more.
A more widespread Kulturkamph might just push the French to become more conservative and Catholic in reaction to the Germans.
A more widespread Kulturkamph might just push the French to become more conservative and Catholic in reaction to the Germans.
Friederich is unfortunately an overly romaniticized wnd white-washed character in history who sort of became a trope in German alt history. Though I’m glad you pointed out the problems with FIII. Plus if news of his British sympathies or at least that of his wife got out, it would be a national embarrassment and likely lead to a serious constitutional crisis.
As far as I know, their Anglophilia was a well-known fact. I know that the foreign service was afraid and reluctant to involve the Crown Prince in foreign ventures or give access, because they feared him giving secrets away to the British. One instance of it happening was his trip to Spain, where he did pass on secret information to the British. And Victoria was disliked because of her attitude regarding Britain. I mean every time she talked about "we" or "our interests" she meant British interest instead of German ones. This never changed throughout her whole life. Her condescending and disparaging comments regarding German culture and its obvious inferiority to British culture were well-known in Berlin society as well as in the papers. There are numerous stories of her attempting to block the purchase of museum pieces by the Berlin Museum from the British ones, because she felt it was a waste and did not think it would be appreciated there. Such instances are numerous and were quite public.
Could you tell me where you found it that it was a less-well-known fact? Or completely unknown? I have only read one explicit biography of Fritz and Victoria each, so I would appreciate the chance to broaden my knowledge on them. Another perspective is always interesting.