What alternate history ideas you wish they were used more often?

Also, Middle East was the centre of learning and a place with an overabundance of polities and wars. All of those make prophets and religions appearing easier. In fact, the last two are exactly what caused the first one. Well, dont take it as a fact, i think it's just one of the mainstream theories, but philospohy and science generally developed in places that were disunited; Ancient Greece, Classical India, Muslim World (Which by the time of the Islamic Golden Age had truly disunited) etc. Imagine you are an Athenian scholar, and you propose X theory, which the Athenian oligarchs dont like. Well, you can simply move to Sparta, or Thebes, or any of the hundreds of other city-states and find a ruler atleast willing to tolerate you. The Middle East also sat on many trade routes, which allowed for goods and ideas to be exchanged. That's why Aleppo had far more thinkers and learners than Mogadishu or Ulanbaatar.
Sometimes, you kind of can. And I'd like to see this reflected more in alternate history.
For example, once upon a time, the biggest and wealthiest city in the New World was Caracas, Venezuela -- but the city was devastated by the Latin American wars for independence, the subsequent political upheaval and civil wars, and finally the 1812 earthquake. Caracas never recovered, while places like Mexico City, Rio de Janeiro, and New York grew instead.

Throughout the Middle Ages and Early Modern Period, the biggest and wealthiest city in Europe was Constantinople, and had likewise been Europe's intellectual capital. After the discovery of the Americas, however, cities like Madrid and Paris started to compete with Constantinople for wealth -- and during the Industrial Revolution, London became Europe's largest and wealthiest city, with the cultural and intellectual prestige that brings. But the privations of the 20th century (including the Great Depression, the Blitz, and suburbanisation) caused London's growth to slow, while Istanbul itself grew to once again be Europe's most populous city -- although it is not Europe's wealthiest, and it doesn't command the prestige or intellectual clout it did at the height of the Byzantine or Ottoman eras.
Istanbul's geography is well-suited to being a metropolis -- but geography isn't the only thing that contributes to city growth. Technology, changing labour relations, the global flow of trade, and other effects of human activity also affect the growth of a city. London -- the capital of a global colonial empire, and the centre of an industrial revolution -- overtook Istanbul in the 19th century, but Istanbul overtook London after Turkey experienced its own urbanisation/industrialisation, and the British Empire had largely been dismantled.

Meanwhile, quite a few cities lost their historical importance due to colonisation. Samarkand and Bukhara come to mind -- both were historic centres of Islamic scholarship and Turco-Persian culture, but their commercial importance declined with the Silk Road. Now, they aren't even the most important cities in Uzbekistan -- that position is held by Tashkent, built as a Russian military outpost, which grew in importance after the construction of the Trans-Caspian Railway.
Bengal's historic commercial hubs of Dhaka, Chittagong, and Sonargaon declined as they competed with the British city of Calcutta; the cities of Ahmedabad and Surat declined as they competed with the British port of Bombay; Malacca, Aceh, and Brunei declined as they competed with British Singapore and Dutch Batavia; etc. And these were very much due to colonial policies & restrictions on trade, as well as just the history of those cities -- e.g., the British East India Company establishing itself in Calcutta before it controlled all of Bengal, and so building its infrastructure around gathering wealth to Calcutta as it expanded. The growth of Calcutta and decline of other Bengali cities was by no means inevitable; it was contingent on the expansion of the British East India Company. Had the French conquered Bengal, its capital might be Chadernagore; had the Dutch, it might be Hooghly-Chinsurah; had it remained Mughal, it might be Dhaka or Murshidabad or Sonargaon. While Bengal is naturally suited to support a massive population, that population wouldn't be centred in Calcutta if not for the EIC.
 
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There aren't nearly enough Mongol centred timelines, much less early modern and onwards Mongolia based TLs. As far as specific PoDs go there are countless. Here are some of the Points of Departure that I have 1. never seen before, 2. would make for super interesting TLs if researched properly.

Firstly, Ligden Khutugt Khan successfully reunifying the Mongols during the early 1600s. Ligden Khutugt Khan was the Khagan of the Northern Yuan from 1604 to 1634 who fought multiple successive campaigns in an attempt to reunify the Mongols. He existed between the rising Manchu threat to the east and the constant Chinese threat to the south and, because of his unpopular rule and the powers surrounding him, he failed to unify Mongolia and his son would surrender to the Manchu leading to the ongoing Chinese occupation of Inner Mongolia. Even a small level of success from Ligden Khutugt Khan would dramatically effect the Qing and China as a whole not to mention the impact it would have on the Mongols.

Secondly, alternate results from the Oirat wars of the mid to late 1600s. From 1657 there was a civil war between the Oirat especially in Dzungaria as the result of a succession dispute, in addition to the civil war, there were clashes with Russian Cossacks in Siberia, the Dzungar invasions of Khalkha and the Dzungar-Qing wars beginning. The mid to late 1600s is rife with potential alternate history completely untapped as far as I'm aware. At points the Dzungars were one of the most powerful empires of Inner Asia and yet they get no love when compared to more mainsteam European TLs.

Third up, the Pan-Mongolism era of the early 1900s. Despite its general irrelevance to modern politics and failure to ever properly manifest, Pan-Mongolism did have a golden age during the early 1900s. Due to the contributions of Buryat intellectuals from Russia, the collapse of both the Qing and Russian empires and the despotism of the far east during the Russian Civil War, there were countless points where Pan-Mongolism was an extremely important aspect of regional politics and could, under the right circumstances have succeeded. I've seen some mild interest in this topic already in the Mongolian history thread but never seen anyone put together a timeline with a Mongolia specific PoD during this era. Because of the knock on effect it would have on China and Russia, as well as because of the challenges it faced, I'd say it'd make for a pretty interesting TL.
 
Third up, the Pan-Mongolism era of the early 1900s. Despite its general irrelevance to modern politics and failure to ever properly manifest, Pan-Mongolism did have a golden age during the early 1900s. Due to the contributions of Buryat intellectuals from Russia, the collapse of both the Qing and Russian empires and the despotism of the far east during the Russian Civil War, there were countless points where Pan-Mongolism was an extremely important aspect of regional politics and could, under the right circumstances have succeeded. I've seen some mild interest in this topic already in the Mongolian history thread but never seen anyone put together a timeline with a Mongolia specific PoD during this era. Because of the knock on effect it would have on China and Russia, as well as because of the challenges it faced, I'd say it'd make for a pretty interesting TL.

That is a very interesting POD! I had never heard of pan-Mongolism. I wonder how it would relate to pan-Turkism, Kemalism, and related ideologies of the time? Did these pan-Mongolists ever reach out to Turanists in Turkey, or pan-Islamists/Jadidists elsewhere? (I know that in the latter case, Mongolians aren't generally Muslim (aside from the Khoton minority), but there are related groups like Uyghurs in the region, and a lot of anti-Tsarist/Bolshevik Muslims throughout China and the Russian Empire) Did they receive any support from Japan -- an anti-Russian/Soviet power, with a supposed interest in liberating Asian peoples?
 
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A interesting historical possibility; Morocco going for a soft power approach in West Africa/ Northwestern Africa, building a empire that lasts up until French colonization or even maybe past French Colonization.
 
Did these pan-Mongolists ever reach out to Turanists in Turkey, or pan-Islamists/Jadidists elsewhere?
The Pan-Mongolist movement was generally isolated, they were never in any sort of contact with any of these groups as far as I'm aware. Especially in Inner Mongolia tensions between the Muslim Chinese and Buddhist Mongols were extremely high with Muslims generally loyal to Chinese central governments. Turan wise, the Turkic peoples of Greater Mongolia were often closer aligned to regional nationalism or Pan-Mongolism than any kind of Pan-Turkism. For example, in Turkic Altai, a native government was established based around the Oirot prophecy, a prophecy inspired by an Oirat Mongol prince during the Dzungar Empire. Additionally, in the Turkic Tuva region, prominent nobles were in favour of joining the Mongolian Bogd Khan while the governor turned the region into the Russian protectorate Uriankhai Republic.
During the later days of Pan-Mongolism under the Socialist government ties to Muslims were complicated. They mostly stayed out of affairs related to Muslims as the Soviet Union had their own interests in Xinjiang. A notable exception would be the Kumul Rebellion where the Mongolian government, not under Soviet instruction, supported and backed the Kumulik Muslim forces of Yulbars Khan against the Soviet backed Xinjiang government. Funnily enough, in relation to Turkey, Kemal Kaya Effendi, a Turk exiled by Ataturk, was chief of staff to Ma Zhongying who served on the same side of the war as Yulbars Khan, he ended up captured by Soviet forces.

Did they receive any support from Japan
Much to the chagrin of the Bogd Khan's government, Japan never supported the Mongolians. Although, at times Japan backed Inner Mongolian monarchists who had some very weak ties to Pan-Mongolism. Japan generally backed the Chinese governments that didn't recognise Mongolian independence at all as they saw little gain to supporting an independent Mongolia. During the early days of the Royalist Party in China, the Japanese supported the Manchu cause as well as the Inner Mongolian noble and de facto leader of Inner Mongolia, Gungsangnorbu who had royalist ties and attempted to establish relations with the Bogd Khan government, however received no response from them.
As is more well known, the Japanese supported Prince Demchugdongrub's separatist Inner Mongolian government during the mid to late 30s who did arguably have Pan-Mongolist intentions, however, were much more concerned with autonomy or independence for Inner Mongolia.

If you're interested in the topic I'd recommend checking out the Modern Mongolian History thread, Pan-Mongolism was discussed a reasonable amount there, and there are a couple different book and paper recommendations in there if you want to learn more.
 
Common Ottoman-Turkish Misconseptions
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I want to take some time to talk about the common misconseptions around the Ottoman Empire and Turkic groups at large by the Alternate History community.
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The Ottoman Empire, during it's 623 year long tenure ruled over many seperate peoples from different cultural, religions and social backgrounds. In fact, ruling over many different peoples is usually a criteria for being considered an empire, but i digress. Of course, a lot can change over 600+ years. Germany went from a monarchy into a liberal republic, into a totalitarian dictatorship and then into a country literally divided by Cold War machinations in a single lifetime. So any claim i make here will only apply to certain situations.
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The Early Ottomans (Roughly from 1299 to 1453) were initially welcomed by the Orthodox populations in the Balkans, because their nomadic-turned settled taxation system, even if specifically targeting non-Muslims with the Jizya, were still generally lower than their previous Byzantine or local suzerains. This is partially due to the Ottomans not being that centralised, unlike the bureocratic Byzantines meaning they could levy lesser taxes. Another was that the Ottomans had fresh blood; They werent bogged down by centuries of established families and bureocratic "Red Tape" if you will.
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The Ottomans established dominance early on by focusing their efforts against Byzantine governors in the region. While other Turkic beyliks fought against one another, the Ottomans under Osman Ghazi only fought against the Byzantines. This allowed them to establish themselves in their early tenure, which allowed them a strong enough position to conquer the remaining Beyliks. They also arrived at a crucial time of internal division in the Balkans: They arrived in the Balkans when the Byzantines were defeated by the Serbs and were bogged down by civil wars, and then they expanded further when the Serbian Empire itself collapsed.
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The Ottomans were generally religiously tolerant early on. Their steppe origins meant that they had a lesser focus on "heathens" in internal politics, which emerged with the nomadic lifestyle of the Steppes. The afformentioned decentralised nature also allowed peasants to keep a lot of their religious freedoms. there was also the fact that the Anatolian Turks had a different viewpoint of Islam. There is a good reason why many sects emerged in Anatolia; It was the meeting point of Christianity and Islam. There were many smaller sects that emerged which had more favourable view of Christianity and Christian traditions, and these affected Ottoman internal policy.
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The Ottoman Empire's Rise (Roughly from 1453 to 1699) was propelled by a centralised Sultan and his personal, capable authority. The Ottomans did not have the "Feudal" nobility that was prominent across most of the world. On the contrary; the Ottoman Sultan possessed large parts of the territory he ruled over. These lands were called "Timar", and were leased to individuals. These individuals would then use the income gained from the land to arm a certain number of "Sipahi" warriors, whom would protect that land and when called by the Sultan engage in campaigns. Other than the "Provisional Army", there was the "Kapıkulu" and "Janissaries". Janisseries were started as a small portion of Christian war captives who would be recruited into a unit loyal to the Sultan in a military slavery (Similar to Mamluk and Ghulam systems). This system later expanded to include Christian locals, which would both volunteer their kids and also would be forcefully recruited. This was to ensure that the Janissaries did not have ties to anyone but the Sultan, and thus both the military devshirmes and the bureocratic devshirmes would serve the Sultan dutifully. This system actually functioned pretty well for a time, but by the end of the 16th century the Devshirme system had largely been replaced by less rigid recruitment, which allowed Muslims to enter the corp and it also allowed sons of Janissaries (Whom previously were banned from marrying) to also become Janissaries, getting rid of the main reason the Janisseries were ever created. Nepotism and Corruption made the Janissaries inefficient, long before technological advancements made them obsolete.
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The Janissary system is usually seen as the Ottomans mass-enslaving countless people straight from the peasentry of the Balkans. This view is a bit flawed due to a few reasons:

1) The Ottomans practiced many forms of slavery, and the Devshirme was much MUCH better than the Chattel Slavery that you usually associate with the word "slavery" (The one practiced in the Americas) and also the serfs in Europe. Devshirme were some of the most skilled men in the Empire, they were paid handsomely and they had a lot of freedoms. (There were rules such as Janisseries not being allowed to marry)

2) The Janissaries only were a few thousand people at most, and combined with another few thousand Devshirmes they represented a tiny amount of the population. For example, in 1523 there were 7164 Janissaries in the entire Empire; which had a rough population of 20 or so million (Combining 1500 Ottoman and Mamluk populations).
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The Collapse Period of the Ottoman Empire is usually associated with Turkish Nationalism, homewer the Turks were one of the last peoples in the Empire to have a widespread national movement (Due to their countryside, agricultural nature). Turkishism (The idea that the Ottoman Empire could only be maintained by being centred around a Turkish entity, an antithesis of Islamism, Westernism and Ottomanism) only became official government policy in 1913 (With the Three Pasha Coup), waaaay later than what most people associate with. Abdulahmid II (1876-1909) himself was an Islamist.
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The Ottomans by the 1900's were not as backwards as most people assume. The Ottoman military in WW1 performed, in all honesty wonderfully and above any expectations. In Selman-ı Pak, the British Advance towards Baghdad was broken, and in Kut-ul Amare an entire British force with 6 generals was forced to surrender against an Ottoman Force which had less men than the British that tried to relieve the siege. The Ottomans held in Palestine until 1917, Medina would hold until 1919 despite being deep behind enemy lines without any hope of relief or resupply, the Ottomans were on the offensive in Yemen and of course there was the victory in Gallipoli, which diverted crucial material from the Western Front and a defeat which had a major effect in the Russian Defeat.
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Even in their infamous defeats, the Ottoman soldiers still performed expertly. In Sarikamish, the Ottomans came very close to encircling thousands of Russian troops in a very well-planned offensive (Which coincided with heavy snowfall that shielded the Ottomans). Most of the casualities in Sarikamish and indeed the very reason it failed was due to one single man, Hafız Hakkı Bey. He commanded the Southern prong of the Two-Pronged offensive into Sarikamish (Inspired by the earlier German victory at Tannenberg), and he sent 2 of his 3 divisions east to follow a small Russian unit retreating. He decided to cross the Allahuekber Mountains to take Kars, deviating from the plan set by Enver Pasha. The trek lasted 19 hours, and his forces lost roughly 90% of their strenght before engaging in any meaningful engagement, which losses are infamous as part of Sarikamish. The Ottomans had only 4.000 or so Russian soldiers arrayed againt roughly 6.000 Ottomans that managed to get into Sarikamish (an important railway junction). It is very possible that the Ottomans might have won if Hafız Hakkı Bey didnt deviate from the plan.
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The Lighting Army Corps (Yıldırım Ordu Grubu) was tasked with defending Syria-Palestine in 1917. This force included many of the finest Ottoman officers (Fevzi Çakmak, Mustafa Kemal etc.) Homewer, it was headed by Erich von Falkenhein and Liman von Sanders (Both German). These officers disagreed with the Ottoman officers on strategy, and instead of a fluid defense opted for a more stationary "No Step Back" aproach, which costed the Ottomans dearly when Austrialian cavalry broke through their ranks in Meggido. All in all, roughly 50.000 Ottoman soldiers were captured by the enemy, and the British aproached as far North as Aleppo. This was the first defeat of the Ottomans in WW1.
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The Ottoman Government before WW1 was actually quite liberal. After Abdulhamit II's deposition in 1909, the Parliment was empowered, which was composed of what i can describe as post-revolution hopeful romanticism? What i mean is that the new parliment had a lot of western and liberal visions, even if they were unrealistic. This only ended when the Three Pashas established their dictatorship in 1913. It is ironic that you were more likely to face punishment in Britain in 1952 for being gay (Alan Turing) than in 1852 in the Ottoman Empire, even if this was due to the Ottomans not having enough control over the population and thus focusing their efforts on more important fields.

So yeah this is kinda my rant about what people usually misunderstand about the Ottomans. Numbers provided may not be fully accurate, but the main gist of stuff is the same.
 
Also not to clutter the page, but the Jizya tax isnt simply tax levied on Non-Muslims because they are Not Muslim. It's actually tax levied on Non-Muslims to make up for the responsibilities they dont have that Muslims do (mainly serving in the military).
 
Also not to clutter the page, but the Jizya tax isnt simply tax levied on Non-Muslims because they are Not Muslim. It's actually tax levied on Non-Muslims to make up for the responsibilities they dont have that Muslims do (mainly serving in the military).
I'm pretty sure that Muslims are not obligated to serve in any military and that conscription is actually haram. And the jizya tax is just a reformatting of pre-Islamic protection pacts whereby stronger tribes have pacts with weaker tribes to protect them. The justification that jizya was imposed because Muslims were paying zakat and other taxes is a recent invention but it has no basis in actual Islamic jurisprudence.

Traditionally, Muslims are not even required to pay taxes. Taxes are only to be levied when the state absolutely requires it and the extent to which it can tax the population is limited to kharaj, which was initially imposed only on non-Muslims and then applied to Muslims, and ushr. In fact, this is what led to the Umayyads getting into hot water because they need tax revenue and so applied jizya onto Muslim converts when they shouldn't have. This one of the factors that led to the Abbasid rebellion.

So, really, jizya is applied to non-Muslims while Muslims basically don't have to pay taxes traditionally. This of course was not true in practice within Islamic dynasties where, even though taxes were significantly lower and there was no income tax, other taxes were applied even when it went against Sharia.
 
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I'm pretty sure that Muslims are not obligated to serve in any military and that conscription is actually haram. And the jizya tax is just a reformatting of pre-Islamic protection pacts whereby stronger tribes have pacts with weaker tribes to protect them. The justification that jizya was imposed because Muslims were paying zakat and other taxes is a recent invention but it has no basis in actual Islamic jurisprudence.

Traditionally, Muslims are not even required to pay taxes. Taxes are only to be levied when the state absolutely requires it and the extent to which it can tax the population is limited to kharaj, which was initially imposed only on non-Muslims and then applied to Muslims, and ushr. In fact, this is what led to the Umayyads getting into hot water because they need tax revenue and so applied jizya onto Muslim converts when they shouldn't have. This one of the factors that led to the Abbasid rebellion.

So, really, jizya is applied to non-Muslims while Muslims basically don't have to pay taxes traditionally. This of course was not true in practice within Islamic dynasties where, even though taxes were significantly lower and there was no income tax, other taxes were applied even when it went against Sharia.
Conscription in the modern sense may be haram, but Muslims still served in the military. Non-Muslims were barred from it in most Muslim states unless they really needed soldiers.
 
Conscription in the modern sense may be haram, but Muslims still served in the military. Non-Muslims were barred from it in most Muslim states unless they really needed soldiers.
Sure, Muslims served in the military but only when they wanted to and they were not obligated to. Part of the reason why slave soldiers were used was because you didn't have reliable access to Muslim soldiers to fight on behalf of you (to say nothing of whether they would be loyal to you or not). Slave soldiers were the only access governments had to something resembling a "professional military" and conscription.

My point is that I can't imagine that the purpose of jizya was to make up other taxes that Muslims had to pay. Zakat does not even count as a tax at all (and the government cannot use it for whatever it wants). It has its origins, like a lot of things in Islam, from pre-Islamic Arabian cultural institutions and practices.
 
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Gualterio Marinelli succeeds in his attempt on Hipolito Yrigoyen in 1929, without Yrigoyen the Uriburu coup in September 1930 responsible for condemning Argentina to a century of coups and insane populism will now probably face a more conciliatory government under Enrique Martinez as President and Elpidio Gonzalez or Marcelo Alvear as Vice-President.
 
Not Mongol Empire per see but I've thought about the idea of an alt-steppe empire led by Buryats who worshipped Er(the opposite of Tengri) in the place of the OTL Mongol Empire due to another figure playing the role of Temujin

My idea being that it ends up like Yuan Dynasty of sorts but centered around European Russia instead of China and it's focus being on the East instead of West(unlike the OTL Russia) while still ending up with a mongolian religion similar to Orthodox Christianity(in a similar fashion to the Golden Horde's adoption of Islam) but if it worshipped Hades instead of Jesus
 
Kind of a upgrade on a idea I posed earlier on this thread about a TL where all western steriotypes about Russia with it's "mongolian institutions" and "oriental despotism" are completely true ezcept it results in them being massively successful
 
Kind of a upgrade on a idea I posed earlier on this thread about a TL where all western steriotypes about Russia with it's "mongolian institutions" and "oriental despotism" are completely true ezcept it results in them being massively successful
So like "Russia as Meiji Restoration Japan"? Or "Russia as the Ottoman Empire but successful"?
 
Like successful Ottoman Empire pulls a Meiji but instead of westernizing it becomes even more "eastern" upon industrializing
 
Like successful Ottoman Empire pulls a Meiji but instead of westernizing it becomes even more "eastern" upon industrializing
By the power of Allah and the Oktay Pasha Device, Vienna will be ours!


(He's the closest Turkey had to an actual nuclear scientist at that era, homewer there were some important Hungarians in the Manhattan Project too)
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On a more serious note; We equate Modernisation with Westernisation because our Eurocentric viewpoint equates all the "barbarian" qualities of medieval and post-medieval world on "Oriental" cultures. Despotism? Corruption? Culture holding back progress? On their own, these things are neither inherently Western or Oriental, they are Conservative. Homewer, when these affect non-modernised nations we instantly attribute it to their "Backwardness" which gets turned into their "Non-Western"ism. Chances are, Modernisation wont be seen as "Western" if you have the East modernise in the required numbers (Not just some luckly one-offs like Japan or post-Ottoman Turkey).
 
Napoleon does Spain and himself a favour. He puts a young Francisco de Paula on the throne with Murat as his prime minister and marries Francisco to a living Julia Bonaparte instead of sending the whole thing to hell.
 
Napoleon does Spain and himself a favour. He puts a young Francisco de Paula on the throne with Murat as his prime minister and marries Francisco to a living Julia Bonaparte instead of sending the whole thing to hell.
Julia Bonaparte? :eek:

Good to know its not just me and Mitridates that meme the idea of a Julia as Queen of Spain
 
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