Primitive gunpowder tech

[DominusNovus]

If some ancient societies figured out gunpowder, what're some of the things they'd do with it, besides rockets? I'm thinking, for the most part, putting gunpowder on projectile weapons. Such as:
Roman Pilum- or any thrown spear/javelin. You attatch the equivalent of a grenade to the weapon. When its lit, you throw it. With the pilum, it'll get stuck in an enemies shield, and they'll either have to throw it away (instead of just drop it), or they get blowed up while they try to pull it out.
Catapult/ballista/trebuchet/etc.- lit, launch, boom, repeat.

 

[robertp6165]

If some ancient societies figured out gunpowder, what're some of the things they'd do with it, besides rockets? I'm thinking, for the most part, putting gunpowder on projectile weapons. Such as:
Roman Pilum- or any thrown spear/javelin. You attatch the equivalent of a grenade to the weapon. When its lit, you throw it. With the pilum, it'll get stuck in an enemies shield, and they'll either have to throw it away (instead of just drop it), or they get blowed up while they try to pull it out.
Catapult/ballista/trebuchet/etc.- lit, launch, boom, repeat.

Any bronze-age society is capable of producing cannon. Bronze was the preferred material for cannon right up to just a few years before the American Civil War (and even during the ACW, it was still the preferred material for smoothbores...iron cannon worked better when rifled), and any society which has mastered bronze casting can make a bronze cannon. Hand guns are a bit more tricky, but there is no real reason why they could not be cast in bronze. Iron-age societies are even better placed to make use of gunpowder, of course.

 

[DominusNovus]

Any bronze-age society is capable of producing cannon. Bronze was the preferred material for cannon right up to just a few years before the American Civil War (and even during the ACW, it was still the preferred material for smoothbores...iron cannon worked better when rifled), and any society which has mastered bronze casting can make a bronze cannon. Hand guns are a bit more tricky, but there is no real reason why they could not be cast in bronze. Iron-age societies are even better placed to make use of gunpowder, of course.

This all assumes they come up with the great idea to use gunpowder as a propellant. Assuming they don't, what're some of the weapons that could be developed.

 

[robertp6165]

This all assumes they come up with the great idea to use gunpowder as a propellant. Assuming they don't, what're some of the weapons that could be developed.

Very true...although I think that it's pretty much inevitable that they will at some point have this idea. All it takes is the right kind of accident to show gunpowder's propellant potential.

But in the interim before this happens, I think hand grenades are a logical option...these can be made of ceramic, for example, even by stone age level societies. Exploding projectiles for catapaults also are very likely...you don't even have to have fuses for these, as black powder is easily exploded by simple percussion (fling a clay jar filled with powder at high speed against a stone wall, and BOOOOM!!!!). You could even have small, round containers of powder which could be lobbed by slingshots at enemy troop formations (these would have to have fuses, though).

 

[wkwillis]

Firebombs

A problem with gunpowder grenades is the fuse timing and reliability. A fire bomb tossed by a catapult has the advantage that this big sticky bag with a gunpowder bomb inside it is difficult to toss back.
Basically we lose fortifications except the earthworks and foxholes. We also have problems with massed formations of pikes or the Roman legions. It's too easy to build a bomb that is fired by a string. When your Roman legion is about 100 feet away you pull the string...

 

[robertp6165]

A problem with gunpowder grenades is the fuse timing and reliability. A fire bomb tossed by a catapult has the advantage that this big sticky bag with a gunpowder bomb inside it is difficult to toss back.
Basically we lose fortifications except the earthworks and foxholes. We also have problems with massed formations of pikes or the Roman legions. It's too easy to build a bomb that is fired by a string. When your Roman legion is about 100 feet away you pull the string...

You could eliminate the problem with fuses and timing on hand grenades by making them of thin ceramic. You would fashion a small, hollow container, fill it with powder, and seal the hole. The container would have a ring (kind of like a little pitcher handle) fashioned on it, to which you could tie a piece of burning rag. You throw the grenade, which shatters on impact with the ground, allowing the burning rag to explode the powder. Similar in concept to a Molotov Cocktail...

 

[wkwillis]

Gunpowder doesn't explode

Gunpowder doesn't explode/detonate. It just burns very rapidly. The way you get gunpowder to go bang is to burn it in a confined space. The higher the pressure the faster the heat transfer, so when you burn it in a confined space the pressure goes up, which makes it burn faster, which makes the pressure go up...
That's also why you have corn gunpowder for propellants and meal gunpowder for explosives. Bigger surface area for meal gunpowder for a steeper pressure curve.

 

[DuQuense]

With Sulfur and potasium U get strick anywhere matches, Stick the match agaist a rough[sandy] surface, put in in the front of Your Gernade, put your gernade on a arrow. arrows hits ememy shields, ememy dosn't have any sheilds.

 

[Diamond]

Torpedoes?

What about some kind of primitive torpedoes? Construct a sturdy, waterproof, but lightweight cylinder, pack the back end with propellant, and put a big iron 'arrowhead' on the tip, with a rope tied to it.

The torpedoes are put in the water, roughly lined up, and the gunpowder 'rocket' at the rear is ignited. Skimming across the water's surface as the cylinder around it disintegrates, the arrowhead embeds into the hull of an enemy ship. The rope tied onto it leads back to a friendly vessel, where crewmen can pull on it, ripping out the arrowhead and creating a gaping hole in the enemy hull.

 

[carlton_bach]

I think the thing to look at here would be early Chinese gunpowder weaponry. The gun concept was long in developing, but there were a number of uses they put the new material to almost immediately

- incendiary weapons. A bagh fuill of gunpowder is attached to a spear, arrow, or just lobbed at the enemy. A fuse is attached. The bag catches on impact and a huge flame goes up, setting fire to things and people

- 'gas' warfare. Gunpowder mixed with all manner of smelly, smoky stuff is lobbed into a confined space. The rapid burning sucks up the oxygen and fills up the room with acrid, possibnly poisonous smoke

- flamethrower tech. Fill a tube with compacted gunpowder and light the tip. It spouts a tongue of flame that can now be projected at an enemy. It is theorised that this is the direct ancestor of gun technology.

- If you have gunpoweder, you will probably also play around with other aspects of it constituents. The Chinese figured out very quickly that filtered mineral oil mixed with saltpetre makes a nasty concoction.

- rocketry takes great willingness to experiment and fiddle around, but I could see it happen. Maybe volley rocket launchers. THe Chinese even designed a two-stage rocket that skimmed along the water's surface before accelerating to a final impact. Of course, whether it actually worked most of the time is another issue...

- and finally, anyone who works with gunpowder is liable to find out what happens if you put it into hard casings. The anciemnts are not in a good position to exploit hand grenades (European iron deposits by and large have higher melting points than Chinese and cast-iron technology was late in the coming), but ceramic or glass should do the trick. In a pinch, bronze, though that would make expensive military technology.