Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles

Indeed the historical role of the Ottoman General Staff in 1918-1921 probably will be used as justification for its elimination. This is especially a demand Stergiadis could make due to his and Venizelos, OTL accusations that the Allies permitted the Ottoman General Staff too much freedom in 1918-1920.
 
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Also I don't thing Greece would like a Bulgarian monarchy as they have started 3 wars with them. Also having a fellow republic is better for PR.
And the people who IOTL were the main non-communist elements of the Fatherland Front (Zveno/Broad Socialists/Agrarians) would probably want a Republic as well.
Moderate islamists playing on elements of Islamic spricture have a good chance of doing this
On that note, what would be an interesting possibility could be Turkey and Iran reversing historic trajectories with Iran being a shaky republic prone to coups while Turkey is initially under a pro-Western monarchy before falling to Islamic Revolution.
 
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I’m imagining Saudi Arabia in the future being in a prime position to greatly influence Turkey when the day comes that got enough oil money to influence the country’s politics.
Maybe maybe not. Keep in mind the trajectory of Islamic political thought in Turkey ATL is a open question. The presence of the sultan plus the sheik-u-islam might mean different things. Turkey could also go a Malaysia path.
 
A big thing will be the role of tarikats (lay person Islamic brotherhood /sect organizations of communal organizing) in ATL Turkey. If they become the main social institution of organization Islamism will be interesting in Turkey
 
And honestly I think Stalin is going to be displeased with how little the west sticks to the holy napkin ITTL. They are going to have to much of an advantage in to many places I think .
Considering how Stalin wouldn't stick to the holy napkin in ittl when it suits him does he have any leg to stand on? He'd still cry about western imperialism bc it suits him tho.
I have a feeling we are not getting a Soviet Turkey. A Soviet ally does not necessarily mean a "Left" wing regime (i.e Afghanistan, Finland)
Tbf I think they're going to be a Soviet ally but be overtly right leaning with theocratic elements much like the Ba'athists in Syria and Iraq.
You will get a purge of "right wing" Kemalists , inclusion of pro-Soviets in government but still CHP/CHF nationalists controlling the government. The weakening of the army both structurally and politically will be the biggest change (purge of the General Staff, if not its abolition, limits on armaments, probably abolition of consription, i.e eradication if the Chakmak influence)
Tbf I think the Kemalists that'll be the most discredited and be booted are the secularist Kemalists. They've tried again and again to get rid of Greece from Anatolia and they've decisively failed every time. The more Islamist ones probably will stay until something else happens. The army probably would also be weakened as you've said and be more focused on maintaining internal order.
And the people who IOTL were the main non-communist elements of the Fatherland Front (Zveno/Broad Socialists/Agrarians) would probably want a Republic as well.
Yeah considering that there's that much support for a republic Bulgaria would probably go either way.

Tbf I think we'd get a split Yugoslavia with it being the Serbs Vs the Croats (especially if the Soviets have Hungary as a puppet) and the country would be split between the Croats/Bosnians and the Serbs.
On that note, what would be an interesting possibility could be Turkey and Iran reversing historic trajectories with Iran being a shaky republic prone to coups while Turkey is initially under a pro-Western monarchy before falling to Islamic Revolution.
Yeah I think it's the likely option with minor differences: turkey being under a pro western monarchy may be possible but the sultan didn't prevent Cakmak and co from doing all this, so turkey may become a republic. Or maybe not. Idk really.
 
As I said before they'll get pretty partitioned hard by the Soviets so I can't see them being a Soviet ally.
thing is they'd see everyone as having partitioned them so using 'the soviets have taken their land' isn't really that good of a reason against a turkish-soviet partnership. Turkey seeing the soviets as someone who could allow them more strategic autonomy then the Americans is a possibility after all.
 
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thing is they'd see everyone as having partitioned them so using 'the soviets have taken their land' isn't really that good of a reason against a turkish-soviet partnership. Turkey seeing the soviets as someone who could allow them more strategic autonomy then the Americans.
I don't think Turkey is going to ever be won over by the Soviet/Russian promises over that of America or Great Britain even if they were making a giant ass-kissing show of it, centuries of lies, mischievous actions and broken promises are not easily forgotten.
 
I don't think Turkey is going to ever be won over by the Soviet/Russian promises over that of America or Great Britain even if they were making a giant ass-kissing show of it, centuries of lies, mischievous actions and broken promises are not easily forgotten.
yeah they'd be allies of the USSR as much as the Arabs: basically they'd be allies of convenience because the Americans main allies are Greece and Israel in the ME.
 
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It is odd at a glance but all those pebbles I mentioned causing the landslide slowly tip the scales more than one extra rock. I’d be interested to see what the history books are like ITTL. Because while the Big Three are certainly still the Big Three, the European/Middle Eastern front has several tier two powers preforming major feats. So I wonder if the secondary powers and partisans will get the credit they deserve ITTL.

As for Bulgaria I think it has a better chance than Yugoslavia at slipping the Iron curtain because it doesn’t have the massive communist resistance movement that Yugoslavia does. And I could easily see the monarchy surviving in a highly neutered form like the Japanese monarchy did. I can’t see it retaining much power though, child monarch or not.

And honestly I think Stalin is going to be displeased with how little the west sticks to the holy napkin ITTL. They are going to have to much of an advantage in to many places I think .
There's a sizeable Yugoslavian army fighting on the Greek/Balkan front, and they are very well placed to liberate their country before Tito's Partisans are able to do so. Tito will be too popular and powerful to ignore but he won't have sole claim to national leadership like he did in the OTL.
 
thing is they'd see everyone as having partitioned them so using 'the soviets have taken their land' isn't really that good of a reason against a turkish-soviet partnership. Turkey seeing the soviets as someone who could allow them more strategic autonomy then the Americans is a possibility after all.
Most likely Turkey will agree to maintain a position of neutrality like Finland. Like Finland they’ll appear to be friendly but only because they don’t want to risk another disastrous war.
I don't think Turkey is going to ever be won over by the Soviet/Russian promises over that of America or Great Britain even if they were making a giant ass-kissing show of it, centuries of lies, mischievous actions and broken promises are not easily forgotten.
Also if the Marshall Plan comes on schedule, it’s more like this will win over Turkey to the US’s side even if they’ll be neutral a la Austria.
 
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This sounds like we'd get a confrontation between Greece and Turkey over Cyprus post WWII which doesn't bode well for Turkey in the long term.
Just a lieutenant and a 20 year old girl escaped to Turkey. :angel:
Considering that the Jews and Cypriots are fighting in the Balkans together I'd think they'd have good relations in the post war period which will be good for both countries.
Countries? Neither of the two is a country at the moment...
Guess the question is who gets to run Bulgaria then after the war. Probably some sort of Agrarian-Broad Socialist coalition but we never know.
One would note that the Bulgarian Communist party was one of the strongest in Europe. In 1923 it got over 19% for example, in 1939 it got over 8 while technically... not participating in the elections and under a royal dictatorship.
Unless something changes dramatically, the Bulgarian and Turkish air forces are heading for extinction in the next 3-6 months.
My prediction; Bulgaria will capitulate/switch sides until March-April 1944 and Turkey a bit later (unless they are really smart).
Both air forces are dying as we speak... but then the same is the case for Axis air forces in general by this point.
If Bulgaria capitulates soon the that opens up Romania, Hungary and the entire Balkans to the Allied armies - and no matter what the percentages agreement may have implied, once western soldiers are there the Red Army will find it impossible to set up Communist dictatorships.
One would note that if the Western Allies can see the writing in the wall so can the Germans. Germany has every reason to want to keep Ploesti in its hands even if the USAAF is blowing it up to bits from Greek airstrips at the moment...
Yeah,it was in 100-138 I don't know the specific chapter.
Part 45, December 1937 to be exact.
Iotl, the monarchy was, technically illegally, dissolved by a soviet 'referendum' by a very convincing 95% in favor of a 'republic'. If it's American and Greek armies on the ground in Sofia, rather than the red army, would the western allies actually care? Tsar Boris, one of the key people that brought Bulgaria into the war, is dead already-killed in spectacular fashion by the Greek resistance themselves. If the western allies actually put it to a legitimate referendum, or accept a conditional surrender, I could see the monarchy scraping by.
Perhaps, perhaps not. There is likely a broad coalition not particularly happy with the throne. Agrarians, social democrats, communists...
They also never technically declared war on the soviets, so napkin aside Stalin wouldn't exactly have much room to complain.
The comrade general secretary has his own means to influence things around the globe...
It is not just that they won't find "empty land" to form cohesive communities. It is the kind of land they got in OTL. They settled in some of the richest regions of Anatolia, the ones that were producing the majority of the exports. The Rumelian Muslims got to tap much of the country's wealth through acummulating capital. I guess that after a point, compounding the hard currency inflows translated into political power.
"Won't find empty land" is something of an exaggeration. Yes Turkey failed to regain East Thrace and Ionia TTL. This still means that at the time of the peace treaty held territory that in 1914 had a combined Greek and Armenian population of about 2.5 million...
It is a bit complicated. In general most choice land went not to refugees but party stalwarts (irrespective of origin i.e Sabanci started in Ankara). That said there was enough land ,and the expulsion of Greeks permitted essentially land reform. So you got small land holders who had to be managed by more mass politics means, vs the East were massive land holdings made landlords the main political agent (thus patron-client relations).
It certainly did not hurt that they exchange of populations post Lausanne was heavily tilted in the Turkish favor. The Turkish government inherited the land holdings of about 4 million people while having the settle fewer than half a million. So it could do everything at once. TTL even with a lot more refugees and quite a bit less former Christian land, it still likely has more land than people but nowhere near OTL. Besides I'd expect defeat affects legitimacy which the cynic in me would expect to mean that local elites need to be kept bought.
Thus I expect Turkish politics to be dominated by land issues. In a way the regimes will have an incentive to break apart the muhajir populations so as to dilute their potential political power. But sooner or later, the anatolian peasant masses will also lodge their demands (just like Russian peasant masses did, and indeed just as French peasants did. Many people do not know this, but land reform was the single most popular result of the French Revolution, even in regions that later rebelled against the Religious polices. And both classical liberal economists, conservatives reactionaries, and marxists attacked it as undermining capitalist development ).
How much this, or perhaps for how long, this would remain the primary concern with populations flocking into the cities and other sectors of the economy growing relative to agriculture post 1945 though? I'd guess at least a generation, after all in the early 1970s 70% of the population was still in agriculture accounting for a third of GDP and 90% of exports.

Knowing what the Soviets will do to Turkey, I highly doubt it. Probably a bunch of centrist political parties instead.
Yes? What the Soviets will do to Turkey? :angel:
Indeed the historical role of the Ottoman General Staff in 1918-1921 probably will be used as justification for its elimination. This is especially a demand Stergiadis could make due to his and Venizelos, OTL accusations that the Allies permitted the Ottoman General Staff too much freedom in 1918-1920.
Stergiadis would most likely make the attempt, but it would obviously be affected by the Turkish endgame here. One would also note that Stergiadis may be the well respected elder statesman here but elder is also literally true here, he's turning 83 in 1944. Which probably has to something to do with some of the Greek party leaders agreeing to supporting a government under him...
 
Countries? Neither of the two is a country at the moment...
ye I meant Greece and Israel eventually.
One would note that the Bulgarian Communist party was one of the strongest in Europe. In 1923 it got over 19% for example, in 1939 it got over 8 while technically... not participating in the elections and under a royal dictatorship.
So civil war too?
It certainly did not hurt that they exchange of populations post Lausanne was heavily tilted in the Turkish favor. The Turkish government inherited the land holdings of about 4 million people while having the settle fewer than half a million. So it could do everything at once. TTL even with a lot more refugees and quite a bit less former Christian land, it still likely has more land than people but nowhere near OTL. Besides I'd expect defeat affects legitimacy which the cynic in me would expect to mean that local elites need to be kept bought.
tbf considering that a bunch went to landlords which have been discredited by the wars idk what'll happen to the country in general.
How much this, or perhaps for how long, this would remain the primary concern with populations flocking into the cities and other sectors of the economy growing relative to agriculture post 1945 though? I'd guess at least a generation, after all in the early 1970s 70% of the population was still in agriculture accounting for a third of GDP and 90% of exports.
which regions would be the first to industrialise ittl? or would turkey industrialise much less than otl in general?
 
At this rate, it is more likely there would be a Greek intervention.
Yeah Greece building up their military industrial complex by intervening in favour of south Korea is very possible.

Tbf I think Turkey would be attempting to build up their own armies for a confrontation between them and the litany of enemies they have in the ME. They would probably send observers in the Soviet side tho.
 
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