What are the implications of Soviet communism collapsing during or immediately after WWII?
- Thread starter Strategos' Risk
- Start date
imagine when you find out the borderline neo-feudal Tsarist hellhole of nigh-constant anti-semitic violence was not in fact that utopia you thought it was.
Generalplan Ost - Wikipedia
Anticommunism is an ideology of genocide.
You are whitewashing Nazis.
I want you to explain why Nazi Germany, a nation built on the ideals of racial purity and mass genocide, is better than the nation that ostensibly preaches the ideals of equality and brotherhood (not that it does those well, but one would think which one's ideal world is better)
John Waters
Banned
Don't know how you confused meanings of words "normal" and "utopia"
... wich(even if we accept unquestionably that all that we know about it is completely true) STILL contained in it nothing that the communists weren't already doing to their own country lmaoGeneralplan Ost - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
John Waters
Banned
It's an anonymous board but let me take a guess, you are from a first world country and have never had to deal with or even see consequences of communism yourself?
How's saying that one thing is worse than the other is whitewashing that thing?
At no point didn't the Soviets ever go as far as the Nazis in terms of trying to purge an entire continent of people they deemed inferior and replace them with their own people. The holodomor was awful, but it wasn't something on the scale of the Holocaust or even the destruction of Native Americans.
John Waters
Banned
I don't care about what someone says, only about what someone does - and you should do the same! Like if someone murders your family with an axe in front of you how would it make it better if thay say that it's for a greater equality? I think you wouldn't care, and the same is true on the national and global scale
The crimes of communism are literally worse as in both more inhumane and had far more devastating effects(the nazis lasted less than 2 decades, communism still poisons the world today)
John Waters
Banned
Yeah about that, actually the soviet regime commited a multitude of ethnic genocides(some were completely successful, some only partially so), meaning killing people on the basis of their ethnicity(sounds not very Marxist to me btw, but maybe it's just me), as well as killing people on the basis of their social class, so actually purging an entire continent(and the one much larger than the one the nazis were aiming for at that!) by murdering all the people who were deemed unworthy of life is literally the description of what the soviet regime and similar regimes(red China, Khmer Rouge etc.) were doing, and they were both more successful in their genocide, often even more sadistic in their methods and killed more people, so yeah, communists are worse than nazis
Holy shit are you actually downplaying a core tenent of Drang nach Osten and Lebensraum?
If you unironically said this to a Holocaust survivor, I think they'd beat the shit out of you. You have to be high to assume being ruthlessly exterminated in death camps is somehow morally superior than the neglect and incompetence the Soviets and Maoists caused.
Fun fact, had Nazi Germany been given the same amount of time as the Soviets, they would've gleefully exceeded the Soviets in numbers and cruelty.
I dare you to say this to a Jewish person
John Waters
Banned
There was actually no one finalized "Plan Ost" and what we know about it now is in large part influenced by soviet propaganda, but even if we accept completely that all about it is true it STILL doesn't contain anything that the soviets weren't already doing to their own victims
- genocide? - check
- artificial starvation? - check
- forced labour? - check
- extreme state terrorism? - check
And so on
What the fuck?
"um actually, what we believe about the Holocaust was actually told to us about the Soviets, and I think they're liars so I believe the Holocaust was exaggerated"
Absolute insanity
John Waters
Banned
Yeah that sure is a valid point
You mean the Soviet death camps, right? You do know that before WW2 the soviets were already massively implementing death camps on their own people?
That's an interesting way to spell "genocide"
Maybe so, but it's not what happened in reality, so it's literally not a fact lmao
Fact is the opposite, that the soviets exceed them
I'm literally Jewish lmao(and to completely take wind out of your sails, my family fought in the Red Army too)
Feel free to apologise whenever
John Waters
Banned
You do know that the Holocaust and Plan Ost are different things? But if I have to spell it out: Holocaust was an actual action of nazis, genocide of Jewish people in the nazi-held territories, Plan Ost was a nazi program of colonisation of nazi-occupied Eastern Europe wich involved genocide, forced labour, mass starvation, etc., it was never finalized nor fully implemented(wich of course does not mean that they weren't doing these things)
Gulags were terrible, but they existed to contain political prisoners not ethnic minorities. Nor did they contain any gas chambers to kill them en masse.
This is the alternatehistory.com, we're supposed to discuss what ifs.
To be honest I don't really have any way of believing you, so I don't know why you're downplaying the guys with gas chambers and furnaces that intended to depopulate a continent.
It was a weird way of phrasing it, but I guess that's your brain on anti communist brain rot.
John Waters
Banned
This is literally factually incorrect, they existed to murder people based on their class, ethnicity, former position in pre-revolutionary society or other charecteristics(most of the "political prisoners" that you're talking about were literally, by definition, not that, as most of them were never active in politics or knew shit about that, for the majority of the soviet victims the 'crime' was being born wrong, having the wrong job, or sometimes the neighbours snitching at you or your local state police needing bigger conviction numbers) by starving them, slowly working them to death or, well, by simply murdering them outright
And yeah, the Soviets were commiting ethnic genocides, Holodomor is simply the most famous example, but actually at the same time the same thing was happening in Central Asia, the soviet government's struggle against "political enemies" often included rounding up and indiscriminately murdering some city's population of certain ethnicity, and if you ever heard about the peoples "deported" by soviet government...
I don't mean to be rude but you should actually study history of things like that before talking about them, and as it's literally the history of my country I take offence in that
Not to call them facts!
Well if you disregard any information that may burst your bubble than I have nothing to say to you really, have a bad day
Well I know that you wouldn't say any of this to me in person so that's good enough for me lol