Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[Bougnas]

TOGs, A20 and A22 were all long because this was requested by the procurement officers who had ridiculous trench crossing requirements. Allan didn't change that in this TL so those tanks will still be cursed. TOG and Vauxhaln happily designed competitive normal length heavies when it was allowed to.

If that requirement hadn't ever existed the niche for TOG would only have been a "high" caliber gun (French 75mm) to break through concrete and thicker armor than Matilda, and 6pdr initially. So Churchill but less rushed and better.

 

[MattII]

One thing about all of this is that the British/Americans might cotton on a bit quicker to converting the M3's into SPGs (Priest/Sexton) earlier, especially given the work that's happening on that sort of thing at Vickers ITTL. Might be seen as a good option to use "unwanted" M3s in a role their hull design is suited for earlier on. Could also help with production of Valiants/Victors, as hulls etc won't have to be dedicated as much to the SPGs, potentially.

That's a good idea.

TOGs, A20 and A22 were all long because this was requested by the procurement officers who had ridiculous trench crossing requirements. Allan didn't change that in this TL so those tanks will still be cursed. TOG and Vauxhaln happily designed competitive normal length heavies when it was allowed to.

If that requirement hadn't ever existed the niche for TOG would only have been a "high" caliber gun (French 75mm) to break through concrete and thicker armor than Matilda, and 6pdr initially. So Churchill but less rushed and better.

Speaking of infantry tanks, the Black Prince likely never sees the light of day, along with possibly several of the others.

 

[Mark1878]

That's a good idea.


Speaking of infantry tanks, the Black Prince likely never sees the light of day, along with possibly several of the others.

Well until they see the Russian JS and German King Tigers.

Note in OTL although we see the Centurion as the only tank it was not and the British only went to one tank with the Cheiftain.
UK did produce a heavy tank to support the Centurion - it was the Conqueror

 

[MattII]

Well until they see the Russian JS and German King Tigers.

Of the experimental tanks, only the Excelsior would have anything like the speed needed to match them.

Note in OTL although we see the Centurion as the only tank it was not and the British only went to one tank with the Cheiftain.
UK did produce a heavy tank to support the Centurion - it was the Conqueror

Yeah, the Conqueror never made it far though.

 

[Mark1878]

Of the experimental tanks, only the Excelsior would have anything like the speed needed to match them.

I meant to serve the same role not to fight them.

Yeah, the Conqueror never made it far though.

It was in service for 10 years and there were nearly 200 of them, 9 per regiment, until replaced by the Cheiftain.

Reading wiki - the thought started design just after the Centurion. So the process of design would still be there with the Victor., they will want a tank to deal with the JS-III

 

[CB13]

The 75mm ammunition would have come from the USA, so wouldn't be viable before 1942.

Sorry.....my wording should have included more context....so I'll try again:

"Although no longer applicable to this timeline, I always found it interesting that the British didn't prototype and develop the 6-pounder and [their own equivalent of the] 75mm QF tank guns in parallel."

So instead of being reliant on US 75mm projectiles, that their program included an all-British 75mm/3" gun broadly similiar to the 75mm QF in form and function...that like the 75mm QF would've had a simplified common supply line (same case, similar barrels and breaches) and simplified engineering (same mount)....with that gun replacing the duplicate efforts of the 3" Tank Howitzer.

 

[Bougnas]

Sorry.....my wording should have included more context....so I'll try again:

"Although no longer applicable to this timeline, I always found it interesting that the British didn't prototype and develop the 6-pounder and [their own equivalent of the] 75mm QF tank guns in parallel."

So instead of being reliant on US 75mm projectiles, that their program included an all-British 75mm/3" gun broadly similiar to the 75mm QF in form and function...that like the 75mm QF would've had a simplified common supply line (same case, similar barrels and breaches) and simplified engineering (same mount)....with that gun replacing the duplicate efforts of the 3" Tank Howitzer.

That would be the 12 pounder. Too bad only Vickers promoted it in Valentines though.

 

[Merrick]

One can hope.
In a way, the M4 was a victim of its success in Libya.
It was probably the best tank around in early 1942, reliable, proof against most German Anti-tank and tank guns at combat ranges, and a gun that could handle any tank that it met.

So why change anything? Everyone loved the Sherman the way it was, so needed changes were hard to push forward. The only thing that was easy to do was to make more of them than before

Without the drain of the tank combat in North Africa, there isn't the need to replace losses in the British Armies, as well as trying to equip the new US Armored formations, so a more realistic production schedule can be worked out, that includes new models

But the Germans will not be standing still.
There will be even more effort over OTL to improve the Panzers

I assume you meant "early 1943" there, since M4 production only began in early 1942 and it didn't see action until October 1942.

The problem here is lead times. OTL the M4 design was accepted in April 1941, with the first prototype in September 1941 and it took just over a year for production models to reach the front. TTL we're now at end-1941. With a ~2 year lead time to quantity deployment, if the Americans want something other than the M4 as their primary tank for mid-1944, they have to decide in the next few months - before the M4 has even reached the front - that it will be inadequate in two years and they need to start tooling up for something better. If they wait for combat reports before making a decision in early 1943, they won't get their new tank in numbers until 1945 - which is pretty much what happened OTL with the M26.

I think it's unlikely that having designed the best medium tank in the world, and geared up to build it in quantity, the US will turn round and say "actually it's only a stopgap" just as the first ones are coming off the line. Particularly if the only reason to do so is worries about potential super-Panzers that have yet to appear in physical form. They're more likely to say "if the Krauts want to waste resources building a slow, unreliable and expensive 1942 take on the Char-B1, let them! Remember what happened to the Char-B1s in 1940."

A wrinkle TTL is that if North Africa wraps in 1941 and there is no Tunisia campaign, the Western Allies may well not face German armoured formations again until they land in Italy - or France - maybe in mid-1943. The Sherman and Victor will be largely untested and the Tiger will only be a rumour from Russia.

 

[marathag]

I assume you meant "early 1943" there, since M4 production only began in early 1942 and it didn't see action until October 1942.

The problem here is lead times. OTL the M4 design was accepted in April 1941, with the first prototype in September 1941 and it took just over a year for production models to reach the front. TTL we're now at end-1941. With a ~2 year lead time to quantity deployment, if the Americans want something other than the M4 as their primary tank for mid-1944, they have to decide in the next few months - before the M4 has even reached the front - that it will be inadequate in two years and they need to start tooling up for something better. If they wait for combat reports before making a decision in early 1943, they won't get their new tank in numbers until 1945 - which is pretty much what happened OTL with the M26.

I think it's unlikely that having designed the best medium tank in the world, and geared up to build it in quantity, the US will turn round and say "actually it's only a stopgap" just as the first ones are coming off the line. Particularly if the only reason to do so is worries about potential super-Panzers that have yet to appear in physical form. They're more likely to say "if the Krauts want to waste resources building a slow, unreliable and expensive 1942 take on the Char-B1, let them! Remember what happened to the Char-B1s in 1940."

A wrinkle TTL is that if North Africa wraps in 1941 and there is no Tunisia campaign, the Western Allies may well not face German armoured formations again until they land in Italy - or France - maybe in mid-1943. The Sherman and Victor will be largely untested and the Tiger will only be a rumour from Russia.

OTL, after the disaster of Rommel's huge win at Gazala and Tobruk in June, the US scraped together nearly every running Sherman for emergency transfer to Egypt, with over 300 arriving by September, despite some ships carrying them being sunk by U-Boats.
The replaced an earlier plan by Marshall to send the 2nd Armored under Patton, that wouldn't arrive til late October.

For improvements, here from Hunnicutt

The Aberdeen design was commonly called the 'M4X'

Sloped armor, higher HP engine and wider tracks and HVSS from the M6
Here is Chrysler's idea

Design work and changing from the 75mm M3 gun was started on September 11, 1941, this led to the fast adoption of the 105mm, and the slower effort
for what would become the 76mm M1 gun, that testing of the first tubes in a M4A1 began in August, 1942 at APG.

 

[MattII]

I meant to serve the same role not to fight them.

Does it could as serving in the same role if it's a slow as treacle?

It was in service for 10 years and there were nearly 200 of them, 9 per regiment, until replaced by the Cheiftain.

185, and 28 of those were ARVs. I'd also point out that this isn't especially impressive, as the Comet was kept in service until 1958 (from 1944), despite clear inadequacies.

Reading wiki - the thought started design just after the Centurion. So the process of design would still be there with the Victor., they will want a tank to deal with the JS-III

True. I suspect they'll get the things both sooner and to a better design.

 

[kelgar04]

TBH a lot depends on the germans I think they will more than likely prioritize their newer and best armour to the active front with the USSR and probably cycle the older or worst stuff to rear areas like France and Italy because they will need every thing in there minds to beat the Soviets who are the main 'enemy' right now.

 

[MattII]

TBH a lot depends on the germans I think they will more than likely prioritize their newer and best armour to the active front with the USSR and probably cycle the older or worst stuff to rear areas like France and Italy because they will need every thing in there minds to beat the Soviets who are the main 'enemy' right now.

If the Soviets are smart, they'll hand over one or two captured German tanks to the British/Americans to take home. Meanwhile, by the time the Victor is out, the Germans will be on the back foot, so they won't get hold of any British designs.

 

[marathag]

So what about the German, indeed.
OTL in 1941, Henschel and Porsche were chasing the shifting target for a new heavy tank, after the issues in France against the Char B1 and Matilda II, and recent experiences with KV-1 and T-34
requests from the prewar goal of 30 ton tank were jumped to 36 tons, and then to 45 tons, and have 80mm frontal armor, 60mm sides, and a 75mm taper-bore gun.
Porsche had anticipated problems with that new technology gun, and planned on using the 88mm since March 1941, but didn't foresee how his other new tech might be troublesome, from the aircooled engines driving Siemens Generators to electric motors for the drive, while suspenson hung pivoting units with external torsion bas, to save space inside the hull.

It didn't do too well, For the new type to be showed off for Hitler Birthday in April 1942 , and Henschel's project was chosen to be the 'Tiger'

Now ITTL, British did even better in France, and Barbarossa turn out the same, plus the disaster in North Africa, at the hand of British tanks

Since in December 1941, only Porsche had running Type 100 prototypes with test weights for turrets, Henschel only had the older VK3601hulls without turrets running at this time, Krupp was still building the test VK4501 hull for Henschel.
Hitler may greenlight the Porsche 'Leopard' as it was known at this point for the German Heavy tank, being farther along, even though not as armored as much as AH wanted, with 'only' 80mm front and 60mm sides

and the major rework for the Type 101,, may be delayed that had the heavy armor

 

[MarcH]

For this TL I don't see much changing for US armour in the short term beyond one possible change.

The US has a very good tank in the Sherman and as @Merrick pointed out the lead time for a new tank is at least 18 months so unless something notably better comes along in the next few months then the Sherman will see out the war. The possibility of any new tank looking significantly better than the Sherman to the Americans is, I feel, slim until they have had a proper look at the Victor. Once they get that then there may well be a push for something better, that is still some months away though and won't be an instant process of converting the US Army. Also have to design and build the new tank.

The one possible change I could see is the Americans adopting the new British 75mm HV and putting it in the Sherman. As soon as that gun is known about and looks like it will be generally adopted in British tanks then the American's won't want to be left behind. The one advantage that being 75mm has for the new HV gun is that it could use existing American shells just in the new cartridge. That would be a good all round package if adopted by both major Allies, nice commonality of ammo and a decent gun as well.
This was also the likely plan of the British in OTL but there timing was a fair bit off.

 

[Icedaemon]

So, the Porsche Leopard would be in a lot of ways an earlier Panzer V, or something between a Tiger and a Panzer V, but possibly more reliable than either? That might not be quite as intimidating as a Tiger, but since the main danger of German tanks in my mind was their fairly good tactical awareness and excellent firepower, if these Leopards are produced in greater numbers than Tigers OTL, they would probably produce better overall results, especially against the soviets. It seems that they would have a degree of parity to TTL Victors, or possibly Victors which have been upgraded to fit 17-pounders?

 

[MattII]

For this TL I don't see much changing for US armour in the short term beyond one possible change.

The US has a very good tank in the Sherman and as @Merrick pointed out the lead time for a new tank is at least 18 months so unless something notably better comes along in the next few months then the Sherman will see out the war. The possibility of any new tank looking significantly better than the Sherman to the Americans is, I feel, slim until they have had a proper look at the Victor. Once they get that then there may well be a push for something better, that is still some months away though and won't be an instant process of converting the US Army. Also have to design and build the new tank.

I suspect the British would be quick to point out that, if doing something as minor as checking/changing the spark plugs means pulling out the engine, then you have a design issue.

The one possible change I could see is the Americans adopting the new British 75mm HV and putting it in the Sherman. As soon as that gun is known about and looks like it will be generally adopted in British tanks then the American's won't want to be left behind. The one advantage that being 75mm has for the new HV gun is that it could use existing American shells just in the new cartridge. That would be a good all round package if adopted by both major Allies, nice commonality of ammo and a decent gun as well.
This was also the likely plan of the British in OTL but there timing was a fair bit off.

I'd have to check the sizes of the full rounds. Something tells me the 75mmHV round is a bit bigger than the American 75mm one.

 

[MarcH]

I'd have to check the sizes of the full rounds. Something tells me the 75mmHV round is a bit bigger than the American 75mm one.

Should be a very minor fix if it is. The British threw the 77mm HV together virtually overnight once they gave up on the 75mm HV.

They virtually threw the QF 75mm together and that was a fairly big change. If the end result gets the Americans a better tank the British will do it. They were keen to pass on as much information and advice as possible, just the American didn't always listen, often to the detriment of their troops. To be fair given how Britain performed in the first few years of the war not listening isn't such a massive oversight.

 

[MattII]

Should be a very minor fix if it is. The British threw the 77mm HV together virtually overnight once they gave up on the 75mm HV.

They virtually threw the QF 75mm together and that was a fairly big change. If the end result gets the Americans a better tank the British will do it. They were keen to pass on as much information and advice as possible, just the American didn't always listen, often to the detriment of their troops. To be fair given how Britain performed in the first few years of the war not listening isn't such a massive oversight.

Well now the British are riding high on a year of almost unbroken victories against a peer enemy, so the Americans will have more reason to listen to them, because they obviously know what they're doing.

 

[CB13]

That would be the 12 pounder. Too bad only Vickers promoted it in Valentines though.

This one?

QF 12-pounder 12 cwt naval gun - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Additionally,.any chance you can elaborate on the Vickers story?

 

[marathag]

I'd have to check the sizes of the full rounds. Something tells me the 75mmHV round is a bit bigger than the American 75mm one.

I believe it would have been similar to the old 20cwt 3" AA of WWI 76x420mm with a 116mm rim, vs 350mm and 87mm rim
for comparison, the US76mm was 539mm long with a 93mm rim, and 3" was 585mm and 103mm rim